Franklin starting today...

Re: Franklin starting today...

by Taleback » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:55 pm

depopulationINC wrote:they are not stupid

Debatable. Hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown away on bonuses and no shows, more than one game lost on blatant coaching, reviews, etc. screw ups, another 100 or so thousand in fines, over 100 players donning the uniform for the year, (can you really be that wrong about so many, that it takes that many to figure out what might be a fit in this league), Dicking around over 40 or 50 grand on the only piece of this puzzle that MUST be here for any chance of success in 2017, makes me want a little more evidence that your quote is actually accurate, their previous stints with other teams aside.
Last edited by Taleback on Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by JimmytheGreek » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:10 pm

depopulationINC wrote:
GC Bound wrote:I have to agree with comments that suggest if Jones/Murphy truly want DD as a Rider then this feet dragging doesn't support that as far as I'm concerned, and does lay the seed of resentment and disappointment regardless of what DD says "this is just the business".
I can tell you from personal experience, that " saying" you're wanted in the plan but the actions don't support that, then a basic mistrust develops in any professional, athlete or not! :cowboy:


It absolutely causes some bitterness here and now...big reason DD likes doing this in the off-season...things happen faster when there is less time to chew on numbers.

I will be pretty disappointed if something isn't done...because I think a fair contact is on the table. again...if they went in not wanting something done then they need to go...because if that is their choice so be it ...their team to make these tough decisions...but they had offers on the table and would end up with nothing...they are not stupid and they are not going to base their decisions on public opinion...they have shown that...so that leaves me saying that there is no way they wouldn't have moved him then


Again this would be the logical conclusion that one would make but here is the thing we seemed to be ignoring about
Jones when it come to logic and that is he P***** away over 130k in cap dollars last off season and non of those players are on the team now. So where is the logic in that? I'm know Darian is not stupid and even Rod said that if Jones had brought up the fact of being a tad short of upfront cash Darian could care less as it wasn't his doing and in fact probably some of the pay cut he took "for the team" was just used for that purpose and what did the team benefit from it? Nothing, Zip, Zilch, Squat, NADA. Why should the team ask Darian to make or take even deeper cuts to probably be used to bring in his potential replacement perhaps as early as next year? Perhaps dumb and dumber pull the same stunt and get burned again in FA and again Darian sacrifices for the team and that happens? Please if the team is looking for sympathy Darian should tell then its between sh** and syphilis in the dictionary but you aren't going to find it here.

So if it true the team isn't objecting to the amount but they don't want to pay a lot of upfront money the first year then here is a thought, supposedly the team has a fair amount of cap space this year or at least Murphy alluded to that a couple of months ago on sports cage, so why not get the deal done now and give him a good chunk on this year's cap? Heck the more they can do the better as it has no effect on the 2017 cap. Say they have a couple hundred k in space on this year's cap, I don't know what amount they do have but lets just use that as a number. 200k Dump it on Darian tomorrow and next year he plays for 150k. This gives the team lots of freedom to explore FA or whatever in 2017. Think about it, IF Darian was making 450k last year then he is willing to drop to 350k next year, you pay him 200k on this years cap and only 150k on 2017. That is 300k on 2017's cap that has been freed up. Talk about a gift.

Sure that is a lot of upfront cash but it isn't like Darian is not going to honor the deal or isn't going to "fit the teams plans" like Price did or like Lemon was dumped for. No Darian is a team player but that doesn't mean he is going to kiss Jone's feet doing it. He has proven time and time and he will sacrifice his body to make a play for the team and he is a very good leader on and off the field. That is what you want in your qb and Darian provides it hands down.

So pay him whatever you have in cap space this year and quit playing him for a putz. Again yes it is a lot of upfront money but you get the benefit of having so much more options to build the team in 2017. That is the trade off for having that veteran leadership that has been successful at the most important position on the team. Call it insurance if you want. Get him signed and then if you get a Franklin or a whoever and they show they will be the qb of the future then you cross that bridge then, but at least your not going into next season with your pants around your ankles. No Darian and counting on what we have on the team now would be doing just that. Trading for Franklin would be a very expensive proposition and no guarantees its going to pay off. Be smart and if Franklin isn't a FA then bide your time until next year when he most likely will be unless the Eskimos move on from Reilly which is highly unlikely. Then make your move. If he is a FA this year then you have the luxury of bringing him in and get him in a couple of games to see whats what. If he is all that then great your golden. If he turns into a pumpkin under pressure like many do, then you turf his ***. No harm no foul and you still have Darian. To go and put all your eggs in one basket though and let Darian walk then your literally betting your job on it. Don't be a schmuck Jones and Murph and do the right thing for the team and it's fans and that is to cover your bets. Sign Darian and then you can afford to take a shot on Franklin or whoever. Letting Darian walk and gambling on Franklin or whoever else just isn't being "logical"
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by ed ohmnes » Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:37 am

Exactly' plus you need to show some loyalty , or no one will want to come here, if you keep treating players like that.
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by StormRider1 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:17 am

ed ohmnes wrote:Exactly' plus you need to show some loyalty , or no one will want to come here, if you keep treating players like that.


That's the problem, jones does not treat players well...
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by StormRider1 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:41 am

Taleback wrote:
depopulationINC wrote:they are not stupid

Debatable. Hundreds of thousands of dollars thrown away on bonuses and no shows, more than one game lost on blatant coaching, reviews, etc. screw ups, another 100 or so thousand in fines, over 100 players donning the uniform for the year, (can you really be that wrong about so many, that it takes that many to figure out what might be a fit in this league), Dicking around over 40 or 50 grand on the only piece of this puzzle that MUST be here for any chance of success in 2017, makes me want a little more evidence that your quote is actually accurate, their previous stints with other teams aside.


I agree, let look back...

Our D line from 2015 was better than the D line we now have, he got rid of them all, except George, he retired due to personal matters. Chick he never got the re-deal done, so released him, Chick had another good season.. did any of our front 4 ... ahhhh nope.
He makes a low low ball offer to Dressler's agent, who tells Jones to go F him self, so jones makes no effort to keep Dressler, cause he did not ever fit into his plans. Lucky he found some good receivers.

Our O-line took a beating this season, yet he trades Fulton, who would of re-signed here for next season. Fulton left, and doubles spent the last few games, eating turf and running for his life because the left side was wide open. Another good move... NOT!

add this and what you wrote, and a few more screw ups and we got just that a screwed up season. I still do not like this guy, and he better get Doubles signed soon and DD deserves ever penny he asks for. He earned that right!!
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by depopulationINC » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:17 am

StormRider1 wrote:
ed ohmnes wrote:Exactly' plus you need to show some loyalty , or no one will want to come here, if you keep treating players like that.


That's the problem, jones does not treat players well...


Yup...treats em so poorly that allstars like Foster and Jones came with him. Watch the players interviews...most of them give flowing words towards him. He may have some favoritism towards his guys...every coach in football does...but most players like him. Even Knox...who most thought didn't like the situation has been speaking highly of him...I get fan frustration with him but as far as players...they like him overall...that is undeniable...thus he must treat them well
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by sully » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:42 pm

nythril wrote:There are no rules on the forum anymore.... it's no wonder they are dying

Rule enforcement can admittedly be a little on the slow side, but it happens. Sorry folks.
I'm the Director of Media Technology for the Canadian Football League. Got technology concerns/ideas for the league? E-mail me at ssyed@cfl.ca and we'll talk.
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by StormRider1 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:12 pm

depopulationINC wrote:
StormRider1 wrote:
ed ohmnes wrote:Exactly' plus you need to show some loyalty , or no one will want to come here, if you keep treating players like that.


That's the problem, jones does not treat players well...


Yup...treats em so poorly that allstars like Foster and Jones came with him. Watch the players interviews...most of them give flowing words towards him. He may have some favoritism towards his guys...every coach in football does...but most players like him. Even Knox...who most thought didn't like the situation has been speaking highly of him...I get fan frustration with him but as far as players...they like him overall...that is undeniable...thus he must treat them well


Those he wants he may look after, anyone that may or may not fit his plans and don't kiss his south side... DD contract should be a no brainer, if DD's offer is solid, why fight it!! Defend Jones all you want, I still think he is a egotistical Dick!!
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by depopulationINC » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:49 pm

StormRider1 wrote:
depopulationINC wrote:
StormRider1 wrote:Yup...treats em so poorly that allstars like Foster and Jones came with him. Watch the players interviews...most of them give flowing words towards him. He may have some favoritism towards his guys...every coach in football does...but most players like him. Even Knox...who most thought didn't like the situation has been speaking highly of him...I get fan frustration with him but as far as players...they like him overall...that is undeniable...thus he must treat them well


Those he wants he may look after, anyone that may or may not fit his plans and don't kiss his south side... DD contract should be a no brainer, if DD's offer is solid, why fight it!! Defend Jones all you want, I still think he is a egotistical Dick!!


umm....how am I defending Jones...i have said that this deal should be done...I have said that Jones is pushing for too sweet of a deal...I have said that DD should stand his ground and walk if need be....I have said that if Jones doesn't bring him back and the team sucks he is going to be on thin ice. That doesn't mean I don't see the reality on other matters and saying that Jones is not liked by most players simply is not true....i generally separate unrelated issues. It also doesn't mean that I can't see where Jones is coming from...a 35 y/o QB who still looks like he can play but you are nervous about giving 200k to upfront and want to cover your arse a bit because of age and injury...like it or not DD missed 1.5 seasons (which he seems fully recovered from) and missed a few this season....not his fault...it happens...but at some point you can't fault the staff from doing their best to cover their arses. I still side with DD....but it is also only a few days into the post season...a week or so apart is probably a good thing...spend some time together later and talk

He has had a pile of players swarm to him and he has had a pile of players sing his praises publicly...and yes...of course he favors those in his good books or "his boys",....in what world is this not a reality anywhere? 90%+ of the time people gravitate to that/whom they know and have built relationships with...that is just a reality of human nature and every single coach and GM in this league is like that....Wally perhaps pushes the fringes on that more than anyone. Doesn't mean people that were not in his former embrace can't be in the future...Bagg is a good example...Jones came in speaking the world of him and upped his contract at a time when there was a lot of speculation he would be heading home. He seemed to favor E over Knox...but he sang praises of Knox at the end of the day and is trying to push open NFL opportunities and Knox has spoken highly of Jones as the season ended. Even DD has spoken well of him and that he likes where the team is heading. Roosevelt sang praises and knows darned well he would get top dollar close to home...but he signed as a Rider before coming anywhere close to free agency...


On a side note it sounds like Franklin was indeed re-upped this season early on and that it may have been what got him off of the injured list and trading block. initial 3 year deal though...doesn't sound like that was ever the case
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by JimmytheGreek » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:39 pm

I don't think Jones treats his players bad as such but he can be a bit of p**** at times and I guess at times it is necessary, however playing silly bugger with Darian isn't smart or the way Darian deserves to be treated. I mean yes I understand there may a bit of question whether he can stay healthy but then couldn't the same be said of Collaros and he is much younger then Darian and yet he is getting a far bigger pay day. Sure that could change when his contract is up but I can't see Austin telling Zac either take a cut or your toast. That also isn't the way to treat Darian either, if he was wanting 500k then yes he would be over pricing himself but 350k is a bargain for a player of his experience and leadership so Jones should have signed him in a heartbeat at that price. Oh I know he is trying to squeeze the best deal out of Darian but this is where he is being a p**** when it isn't called for. What ever cap money we have left over this year whether it is 50, 75,100, 200k. Give Darian that and his cap hit is ridiculously minuscule for 2017. Again it allows for so much more improvement on the O line and D line or wherever for the team in 2017. This offering him such a low base and then ask him to pull a rabbit out of his *** to get incentive bonuses is insulting and more then a bit demeaning to a qb of Darian's accomplishments. Sure he had two bad injuries that cost him two seasons but it isn't like his is an annual tub patron spending many games on the IR. Yes he does miss a game or two a season but again so does most every other qb especially when you have O line issues. This asking him to "prove himself" both in his abilities and his health again is just flat out disrespectful by Jones. Either you feel comfortable with his talents, leadership, and health or you don't. If you do treat him like any other proven starting qb instead of like a newbie or one that is incompetent and make him "dazzle you" before he gets paid. If you don't think he can stay healthy or question his abilities then have the courtesy of treating him with class and move on. This " jumping through hoops" to impress Jones is belittling to Darian or would be to any player of his stature.

This is why I think that even if a deal is done then Darian is going to have some hard feelings from it and that is not good for anyone. Jones should have enough sense then to have made Darian such a ridiculous and insulting offer.
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by JimmytheGreek » Thu Nov 10, 2016 11:16 pm

On a side note it sounds like Franklin was indeed re-upped this season early on and that it may have been what got him off of the injured list and trading block. initial 3 year deal though...doesn't sound like that was ever the case


Do you have a link to that?
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by depopulationINC » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:01 am

JimmytheGreek wrote:I don't think Jones treats his players bad as such but he can be a bit of p**** at times and I guess at times it is necessary, however playing silly bugger with Darian isn't smart or the way Darian deserves to be treated. I mean yes I understand there may a bit of question whether he can stay healthy but then couldn't the same be said of Collaros and he is much younger then Darian and yet he is getting a far bigger pay day. Sure that could change when his contract is up but I can't see Austin telling Zac either take a cut or your toast. That also isn't the way to treat Darian either, if he was wanting 500k then yes he would be over pricing himself but 350k is a bargain for a player of his experience and leadership so Jones should have signed him in a heartbeat at that price. Oh I know he is trying to squeeze the best deal out of Darian but this is where he is being a p**** when it isn't called for. What ever cap money we have left over this year whether it is 50, 75,100, 200k. Give Darian that and his cap hit is ridiculously minuscule for 2017. Again it allows for so much more improvement on the O line and D line or wherever for the team in 2017. This offering him such a low base and then ask him to pull a rabbit out of his *** to get incentive bonuses is insulting and more then a bit demeaning to a qb of Darian's accomplishments. Sure he had two bad injuries that cost him two seasons but it isn't like his is an annual tub patron spending many games on the IR. Yes he does miss a game or two a season but again so does most every other qb especially when you have O line issues. This asking him to "prove himself" both in his abilities and his health again is just flat out disrespectful by Jones. Either you feel comfortable with his talents, leadership, and health or you don't. If you do treat him like any other proven starting qb instead of like a newbie or one that is incompetent and make him "dazzle you" before he gets paid. If you don't think he can stay healthy or question his abilities then have the courtesy of treating him with class and move on. This " jumping through hoops" to impress Jones is belittling to Darian or would be to any player of his stature.

This is why I think that even if a deal is done then Darian is going to have some hard feelings from it and that is not good for anyone. Jones should have enough sense then to have made Darian such a ridiculous and insulting offer.


350 is not what DD asked for and I don't care what the media has said...unless it has changed in the past week or so but I doubt he has lowered his ask...I would in fact be shocked. it is not a huge amount off...as of a weekish ago it was more than that...350 guaranteed + incentives...so if that is what is out there they are only talking base...and there was actually an offer worth more than DD asked for...it was simply more incentive driven and not realistically going to get hit all of it and a much lower upfront number. his ask (at that time) I know with certainty exactly what it was...as well as the counter. IMO getting DD at 425-450 is proper valuation....anything under is a good deal....anything higher is IMO overspending and a GM trying to make a splash...Popp is out now though...so the offer of over 500 is unlikely to come.

Here is the thing though...
Montreal will have a new GM...Popp wanted to pay DD 500+ to come over...that "somehow managed to make it to his camp." It is possible the next GM chases him...but probably not for that kind of money....and if he does it means that he has cleaned house even more and then they are in a fullout rebuild...does DD want to go to a new team and face that again? Is Montreal going to roll the dice with Adams...likely
Winnipeg won't likely go 400 if Nichols does well on the weekend...if he wins...forget about it...he is resigned and then there is no 400+ for DD for sure
Then there is Toronto...DD has ties with his GF there so it is interesting....but will SM and Barker move on from Willy? That is the only way they can sign DD....but...and this is a big but...if they move Willy out and bring DD in and do not excel...they are done and they know it. SM has stated that he has wanted Willy for some time and likes him as his QB....he put a lot into that statement...then they traded a first round pick that turned out to be #1 overall,,,IMO their hands are tied for political reasons....self preservation

any of those teams could make a move for him...but with Popp out the world got a lot smaller and DD's leverage got pretty small. Unless someone is willing to put their job on the line then the Jones offer is likely the best DD sees. I think his best chance of getting more elsewhere is if Winnipeg...more so Nichols...bombs against BC. They might still elect to go away from him...but a win...that makes it tough

again though...i agree...I would be paying it...it is a very friendly price that he would fetch more than as a FA. I think that now that the season is done and they can get the final tally on the dollars and cents (ie no allstar bonus bubbles) it will probably help moving forward. They said there were some other FAs that they want to land so I would imagine a bit of 2016 cap will be hitting that as well. The wife brought up an interesting point on DD's contract though...she wondered if maybe they want it to actually all hit 2017. right now they can lock up a few FAs by going them a little bit of cash now to extend...locking up a half dozen players potentially vs one (spreading the risk so to speak)...then have all of his hit 2017 and at a higher base...that way if their concerns have any merit and he is out at some point it is a hit to the 6 game not the cap. Does have some level of logic to it but if it is the strategy...and i don't really think it is...they should just tell him and date something for Jan 1. The argument I have against her logic is that the benefit would really only be there if it was largely base with a very low signing bonus...and DD wants cash...which is smart because it adds a level of protection to him against being pushed out during the season...especially if much hits 2017.

As far as Franklin...nope...no link...just something that was said recently. I don't know if it is true, just what I heard (which is actually why I said sounds like...because it is not a rock solid thing...but I am very confident the initial deal was 2 years though I do not not with 100% certainty)

As far as hard feelings...if something gets done it is water under the bridge....contract negotiations are often ugly and a crappy part of the biz especially when it is the biggest contract on the team....people feel butt hurt all the time but it goes away fast once something is in place it generally goes away fast.

Something that people need to remember or realize as well...Durant is a heart on sleeve kind of guy. If you have ever had the chance to meet him that is just how he is and probably part of what makes him a special leader. I hate to call him thin skinned but I am lacking a better way to express it at the moment...but I think he might take this kind of stuff not so well...likely part of the reason he has always said he prefers contract talk out of the season. i am not saying any of this in a negative way or anything...DD is a great guy. So when DD gets clearly distraught that a deal is not done the other side of the fence is saying they think something will be and that this is why they started talks so early....it is potentially different feelings based on how they wear this kind of stuff.


I will also add that even if something does get done soon that I wouldn't be shocked if nothing is announced until after the playoffs.
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by JimmytheGreek » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:02 am

Yes the 350k I was referring to was just the base but even at that it is still a bargain, I have no idea what kind of numbers or expectations go along with incentives. Of course Darian wants a good chunk upfront as he isn't stupid and knows no contract is guaranteed so he could be traded or cut at any time, paying upfront he at least knows they can't screw him out of that money. Frankly I don't blame him either as lets be honest here Jones and Murph seem to have no issue with axing guys with big contracts.

Yes I agree that Darian is a bit thin skinned but as you say he also gives everything he has to the team on and off the field because of it. Oh I could easily see Winnipeg having more then a window shopper interest in Darian if Winnipeg loses and as you said Nichols craps the bed which I think is very possible. The last two games he was not even close to being good so it is in his head, add to it the pressure of Winnipeg being so desperate for a GC and I could easily see him choking. He is probably lucky that it is an away game rather then in Winnipeg. IF he got off to a bad start there he would hear about it very loudly. So if Winnipeg loses and worse yet if they lose bad then you better believe the Bombers will have eyes staring this way waiting to pounce if Jones slips up.

Sure the Riders could use the cap savings this year and spread it around and then sign Darian in January but that in my opinion would be just stupid. Again it is a message to Darian that we have money for those guys but none for him or he isn't deserving of it. That would probably make things even worse.

So lets say Franklin is not a FA, would Jones be stupid enough to get bent over by Harvey and pay the high cost? I mean I think the rumor was Harvey was asking for 2 first round picks and and a starting NI which is very high but I could see if we don't sign Darian and Jones goes begging that Harvey will be asking even more from us and I would too if I was him, I mean he would know that Jones needs to get someone better then we have now or he may be ran out of town before the end of the season which he should be if he screws this up. However all the talk about building up draft picks and Canadian talent and then turn around and flush it down the crapper in the blink of any eye just because he played silly bugger with Darian? How would the BOD look at that and feel confident in the direction Jones is taking?

I just think Jones needs to come off his high horse and realize that his "free pass" and a season long training camp days are done. The fans and the team is not going to put up with it. Sure next year the team has the benefit of the new stadium but another epic fail and 5-13 season again and that stadium may look very empty in 2018. The Riders as a team can not afford to have 20,000 fans games and make the payments on the new digs.

Jones should get Darian signed asap and then he can go fishing for a Franklin or whoever knowing that at least he is not in a desperate situation to get someone now. Like I said Jones has cut big name players before and it would suck to have him pull that on Darian but if Darian shows he can't be the guy next year then Jones would probably get less flack for doing it. As of now though it wasn't Darian's play that lost us those games this year but our terrible O line and D line that did. Yes Darian could have been better at times but I would say under the circumstances he did about as good as any other qb in the league would have done. Get a better O line and I think Darian will show he still has what it takes. If not then yes the team needs to move on.
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by papazoola » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:13 pm

.......here's my take on Durant's situation...I think it's simply this...Durant is heading into the 'twilight' of his career....He wants a payday that will ensure that he goes out maximizing his dollars...To my way of thinking Darian is holding the better cards...Jones is gambling that Durant will take what's offered... a foolish weak position..Other clubs will definitely offer more for DD's services and he knows it...Even IF the Bombers do fairly well in the playoffs, Walters is still on the look for a solid qb. to make his club a Cup contender for the immediate and distant future....Bombers will be a solid contender for a Cup win shortly and with that comes extra playoff money and more if you win it all...Darian would be definitely aware of that fact...So a decent offer from Wpg. would be tempting...He probably wouldn't mind the fact he would be a team mate of his pal Weston Dressler and that they would/could end their careers simultaneously..We wouldn't be the only club wanting to sign a quality qb. like DD however...I'm sure one of T.O. or Mont. would also be interested...Presently I see Jones going down the same road he did with Chick and Dressler...I would say he better have a super plan 'B' if Durant walks because the good people of Regina won't be too happy(putting it mildly)if the Riders go into their new digs with an unknown behind centre...Just my take and I'm watching while Jones throws the dice :roll:
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Re: Franklin starting today...

by depopulationINC » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:23 pm

papazoola wrote:.......here's my take on Durant's situation...I think it's simply this...Durant is heading into the 'twilight' of his career....He wants a payday that will ensure that he goes out maximizing his dollars...To my way of thinking Darian is holding the better cards...Jones is gambling that Durant will take what's offered... a foolish weak position..Other clubs will definitely offer more for DD's services and he knows it...Even IF the Bombers do fairly well in the playoffs, Walters is still on the look for a solid qb. to make his club a Cup contender for the immediate and distant future....Bombers will be a solid contender for a Cup win shortly and with that comes extra playoff money and more if you win it all...Darian would be definitely aware of that fact...So a decent offer from Wpg. would be tempting...He probably wouldn't mind the fact he would be a team mate of his pal Weston Dressler and that they would/could end their careers simultaneously..We wouldn't be the only club wanting to sign a quality qb. like DD however...I'm sure one of T.O. or Mont. would also be interested...Presently I see Jones going down the same road he did with Chick and Dressler...I would say he better have a super plan 'B' if Durant walks because the good people of Regina won't be too happy(putting it mildly)if the Riders go into their new digs with an unknown behind centre...Just my take and I'm watching while Jones throws the dice :roll:


This is not really true...DD himself can be seen on the videos on Riderville discussing taking a cut...he knows darned well he would get more elsewhere but he wants to play in Sask...opening the new stadium is extremely important to him. He is only going to go so low...but money is far from the big motivator here.
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