Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

Discussion of technique and strategy.

Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by CatsFaninOttawa » Wed Sep 29, 2010 11:56 am

Paolo X wrote:The onside rules for recovery in rugby as you might know are similar but not the same as in Canadian football, and all of the above kicks would work just fine in Canadian football but I have yet to see such a play attempted in the CFL.

A few years back, I remember another play, last play of the game, where the receiver was about to be caught, so he sent a dribble kick ahead of him, chased it down and recovered it. I don't remember if he ended up scoring or not. I seem to remember the comentators mentioning that the receiver also played rugby, so was quite comfortable with this type of play.

Wish I could remember who the player was, or even what team it was.

(A little off topic, but why not, while we're talking onside kicking.)
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Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by Paolo X » Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:34 pm

CatsFaninOttawa wrote:Week 10, Toronto @ Hamilton, Labour Day Classic
4th quarter, 10:27 remaining, 3rd and long

Boreham lined up for the punt, and the snap was a bit off. He faked the punt, then took off upfield. A few seconds later, he kicked a short punt. I'm guessing that he tried what you call an up and under, but got too much of it and it went about twenty yards, righth into the hands of a charging Hamilton player for a 15-yard no-yards penalty.

http://watch.tsn.ca/cfl-games-on-demand/#clip344644, at 9:56 of video.


Good eye missed that play! Not an up-and-under really more of a chip kick, but straight out of rugby the way he did it.

Indeed also in Canadian football as we know he would have had to kick it such that it was five yards away from his nearest offside teammate within such a short distance too, and that is a tall order as well.

I do wish the rules regarding teammates onside on kicks in Canadian football matched those of rugby though, as rugby's rules are more liberal in that regard and such rules would improve Canadian football.
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Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by CatsFaninOttawa » Thu Sep 30, 2010 10:20 am

Paolo X wrote:I do wish the rules regarding teammates onside on kicks in Canadian football matched those of rugby though, as rugby's rules are more liberal in that regard and such rules would improve Canadian football.

Agreed, although I'm still not quite clear on rugby's 10-meter rule. I like the idea that an offside player can become onside once passed by another onside player. I think no-yards used to have this years ago, that once an onside player entered the five-yard zone, other players could they enter it; I could be wrong on that, so don't quote me. Actually, the no-yards rule has had a few changes over the years; you'd need a copy of all the rulebooks over the past twenty years or so to track them all. I don't like it the way it is now - 15 yards in the air, 5 yards after a bounce. I would much prefer that a player could be allowed in the 5-yard zone as long as he's making an effort to get out, although I could see teams abusing this.
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Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by Paolo X » Thu Sep 30, 2010 12:22 pm

CatsFaninOttawa wrote:
Paolo X wrote:I do wish the rules regarding teammates onside on kicks in Canadian football matched those of rugby though, as rugby's rules are more liberal in that regard and such rules would improve Canadian football.

Agreed, although I'm still not quite clear on rugby's 10-meter rule. I like the idea that an offside player can become onside once passed by another onside player. I think no-yards used to have this years ago, that once an onside player entered the five-yard zone, other players could they enter it; I could be wrong on that, so don't quote me. Actually, the no-yards rule has had a few changes over the years; you'd need a copy of all the rulebooks over the past twenty years or so to track them all. I don't like it the way it is now - 15 yards in the air, 5 yards after a bounce. I would much prefer that a player could be allowed in the 5-yard zone as long as he's making an effort to get out, although I could see teams abusing this.


Note that 10 metres distance must be allowed by the defence in rugby union only on all re-start kicks and kickoffs. At one time before rugby went metric worldwide sometime in the 1970s or 1960s, that distance indeed was yards as remains in gridiron football and soccer.

Otherwise in the open field game involving any kicking in rugby, it is just as you stated but no one whether kicking team or potential opposing defending team need give any player ANY distance. Indeed for the most part you can clobber the receiver of a kick after reception with a proper tackle or challenge for the ball equally as is the case on re-start kicks too.

There is one exception within the laws of the game however to equal challenge of any kicked ball that is not used very commonly called the "mark," allowed by the receiving team of a kick only at or behind the receiving team's own 22m line and subject to the awarding of the referee, which basically is a fair catch.

The mark in rugby is the historical predecessor to the fair catch as used in American football and is or was also part of other codes.

I do like the changes you propose to the Canadian game for sure, as I think the existing rules are too restrictive on the kicking game and too many penalties are called that are unnecessary for sake of player safety and disrupt the flow of the game. As you explained some of those changes would just be a return to some old rules that worked just fine anyway.
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Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by Massdestruction » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:59 am

Paolo X wrote:
CatsFaninOttawa wrote:
Paolo X wrote:I do wish the rules regarding teammates onside on kicks in Canadian football matched those of rugby though, as rugby's rules are more liberal in that regard and such rules would improve Canadian football.

Agreed, although I'm still not quite clear on rugby's 10-meter rule. I like the idea that an offside player can become onside once passed by another onside player. I think no-yards used to have this years ago, that once an onside player entered the five-yard zone, other players could they enter it; I could be wrong on that, so don't quote me. Actually, the no-yards rule has had a few changes over the years; you'd need a copy of all the rulebooks over the past twenty years or so to track them all. I don't like it the way it is now - 15 yards in the air, 5 yards after a bounce. I would much prefer that a player could be allowed in the 5-yard zone as long as he's making an effort to get out, although I could see teams abusing this.


Note that 10 metres distance must be allowed by the defence in rugby union only on all re-start kicks and kickoffs. At one time before rugby went metric worldwide sometime in the 1970s or 1960s, that distance indeed was yards as remains in gridiron football and soccer.

Otherwise in the open field game involving any kicking in rugby, it is just as you stated but no one whether kicking team or potential opposing defending team need give any player ANY distance. Indeed for the most part you can clobber the receiver of a kick after reception with a proper tackle or challenge for the ball equally as is the case on re-start kicks too.

There is one exception within the laws of the game however to equal challenge of any kicked ball that is not used very commonly called the "mark," allowed by the receiving team of a kick only at or behind the receiving team's own 22m line and subject to the awarding of the referee, which basically is a fair catch.

The mark in rugby is the historical predecessor to the fair catch as used in American football and is or was also part of other codes.

I do like the changes you propose to the Canadian game for sure, as I think the existing rules are too restrictive on the kicking game and too many penalties are called that are unnecessary for sake of player safety and disrupt the flow of the game. As you explained some of those changes would just be a return to some old rules that worked just fine anyway.


the fairy catch? NO thanks.
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Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by CatsFaninOttawa » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:28 pm

Massdestruction wrote:
Paolo X wrote:There is one exception within the laws of the game however to equal challenge of any kicked ball that is not used very commonly called the "mark," allowed by the receiving team of a kick only at or behind the receiving team's own 22m line and subject to the awarding of the referee, which basically is a fair catch.

The mark in rugby is the historical predecessor to the fair catch as used in American football and is or was also part of other codes.


the fairy catch? NO thanks.

Agreed, I also prefer the 5-yard buffer we have in the CFL to the NFL's fair catch rule. Both serve the same purpose, to prevent the returner from being nailed while he's still looking skyward. But the 5-yard buffer means there is always a return on.

Warning - Off-topic

The mark in rugby, while serving this purpose to some extent, is actually a tactic used to (hopefully) gain field position when kicked to deep in your own end.

First, the mark is only allowed inside the palyer's own 22-metre line. When a mark is called (literally - the player yells "Mark"), the player has to make a clean catch. He then gets to kick the ball from where he catches it. As he is inside the 22, if he can kick it into touch (out of bounds), then his team then gets to throw the ball in on a lineout from where the ball went into touch. While recovering your own lineout isn't guaranteed, it might be a better risk than being tackled deep in your own end.

As Paulo mentioned, the mark is not used much. Kind of like some of the rules in the CFL, like the one that started this thread, two of the three options teams have after a safety touch, or the drop kick. Besides Flutie's drop kick, when was the last one anyone remembers? (I think the last one I remember was by Wilkinson in the laste '70s, early '80s, but I could be wrong.)
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Re: Strategy: Kicking Into A Strong Wind 3rd And More Than Short

by nlsanand » Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:54 pm

CatsFaninOttawa wrote:
Massdestruction wrote:
Paolo X wrote:There is one exception within the laws of the game however to equal challenge of any kicked ball that is not used very commonly called the "mark," allowed by the receiving team of a kick only at or behind the receiving team's own 22m line and subject to the awarding of the referee, which basically is a fair catch.

The mark in rugby is the historical predecessor to the fair catch as used in American football and is or was also part of other codes.


the fairy catch? NO thanks.

Agreed, I also prefer the 5-yard buffer we have in the CFL to the NFL's fair catch rule. Both serve the same purpose, to prevent the returner from being nailed while he's still looking skyward. But the 5-yard buffer means there is always a return on.

Warning - Off-topic

The mark in rugby, while serving this purpose to some extent, is actually a tactic used to (hopefully) gain field position when kicked to deep in your own end.

First, the mark is only allowed inside the palyer's own 22-metre line. When a mark is called (literally - the player yells "Mark"), the player has to make a clean catch. He then gets to kick the ball from where he catches it. As he is inside the 22, if he can kick it into touch (out of bounds), then his team then gets to throw the ball in on a lineout from where the ball went into touch. While recovering your own lineout isn't guaranteed, it might be a better risk than being tackled deep in your own end.

As Paulo mentioned, the mark is not used much. Kind of like some of the rules in the CFL, like the one that started this thread, two of the three options teams have after a safety touch, or the drop kick. Besides Flutie's drop kick, when was the last one anyone remembers? (I think the last one I remember was by Wilkinson in the laste '70s, early '80s, but I could be wrong.)


If you kick the ball out after a mark, the lineout is to the opposition not to your team. However, the benefit is you can kick it out directly.
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