How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by Neely2005 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 1:33 pm

slimjim2 wrote:
sambo42 wrote:Toronto is a pretty fickle sports town... for the longest time, the Leafs were the "it" team, then the Jays, and now the Raptors... if the Leafs manage to win a Cup, then all other teams could be virtually forgotten. Even though the Argos have won Grey Cups, they aren't "major league" in a lot of fans' eyes... that is the thing they need to change, to make an Argo game an event rather than just another game.


They tried hard last year to make an Argo game an event - there was the tail gate party in the Parking Lot with cheerleaders, $4 beers, $4 burgers etc. There was the "Shipyard" a separate area in the Ex grounds with concerts, games for the kids, $4 beers etc Lots of marketing with ads on billboards, subway, buses etc TV ads with the Argos running through the Ex grounds.

You are right, the Argos are not seen as "major league". The only way to change that is if the millens decide that the Argos are cool and the place to be. But that's not going to happen they are packing BMO for TFC and the RC for the Jays and the Raptors are hugely popular with young people.


Just keep doing those things. They will grow naturally over time. They already switched to the larger Ontario Place parking lot for the last few Tailgates.
"ALL-TIME RECORDS

Grey Cup Wins:

16- Toronto Argonauts
14- Edmonton Eskimos
10- Winnipeg Blue Bombers
8- Hamilton Tiger-Cats
7- Ottawa Rough Riders
7- Montreal Alouettes
7- Calgary Stampeders
6- B.C. Lions
4- Saskatchewan Roughriders"

http://www.cfl.ca/2010/12/02/by-the-num ... cup-glory/
User avatar
Veteran
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:26 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by KevinRiley2 » Fri Mar 10, 2017 2:01 pm

slimjim2 wrote:The only way to change that is if the millens decide that the Argos are cool and the place to be.

I've been waiting for this to happen for years. Waiting to hear, "The Argos are cool, again". I've stopped waiting because it's not going to happen.
Last edited by KevinRiley2 on Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
All-Star
 
Posts: 7443
Joined: Sun Dec 13, 2015 2:46 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by rhymes with orange » Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:05 am

Well, you can start to be cool (relatively speaking of course...this is Toronto) by being a dominant football team over several seasons - something that's eluded this franchise for some time.

And it's not going to happen by starting a 37-year old quarterback who's been slowed by injuries for the past number of seasons. Argos really need to develop a Jonathon Jennings-type of gunslinger.
Proud B.C. Lions season ticket holder since 1995.
Image
User avatar
All-Star
 
Posts: 1071
Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:27 am

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by Neely2005 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:11 am

rhymes with orange wrote:Well, you can start to be cool (relatively speaking of course...this is Toronto) by being a dominant football team over several seasons - something that's eluded this franchise for some time.

And it's not going to happen by starting a 37-year old quarterback who's been slowed by injuries for the past number of seasons. Argos really need to develop a Jonathon Jennings-type of gunslinger.


How old were Allen and Burris when they won the MOP?
"ALL-TIME RECORDS

Grey Cup Wins:

16- Toronto Argonauts
14- Edmonton Eskimos
10- Winnipeg Blue Bombers
8- Hamilton Tiger-Cats
7- Ottawa Rough Riders
7- Montreal Alouettes
7- Calgary Stampeders
6- B.C. Lions
4- Saskatchewan Roughriders"

http://www.cfl.ca/2010/12/02/by-the-num ... cup-glory/
User avatar
Veteran
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2015 12:26 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by slimjim2 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:07 am

Neely2005 wrote:
slimjim2 wrote:
sambo42 wrote:Toronto is a pretty fickle sports town... for the longest time, the Leafs were the "it" team, then the Jays, and now the Raptors... if the Leafs manage to win a Cup, then all other teams could be virtually forgotten. Even though the Argos have won Grey Cups, they aren't "major league" in a lot of fans' eyes... that is the thing they need to change, to make an Argo game an event rather than just another game.


They tried hard last year to make an Argo game an event - there was the tail gate party in the Parking Lot with cheerleaders, $4 beers, $4 burgers etc. There was the "Shipyard" a separate area in the Ex grounds with concerts, games for the kids, $4 beers etc Lots of marketing with ads on billboards, subway, buses etc TV ads with the Argos running through the Ex grounds.

You are right, the Argos are not seen as "major league". The only way to change that is if the millens decide that the Argos are cool and the place to be. But that's not going to happen they are packing BMO for TFC and the RC for the Jays and the Raptors are hugely popular with young people.


Just keep doing those things. They will grow naturally over time. They already switched to the larger Ontario Place parking lot for the last few Tailgates.


Yes, I agree. The last game I went to in September I parked at the Ontario Place lot and then walked over to the Shipyards. The other two games I took the VIA train.
It's so much easier to get to and a great atmosphere, too bad more people don't take advantage and go to games.
After everything that happened last year with the move, marketing, tailgating etc , I think the small crowds are here to stay. If the crowds didn't show up last year they aren't coming this season.
All-Star
 
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:28 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by Argofan_1000 » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:41 pm

Perception in Toronto should be able to be fixed and this is one reason attendance may struggle right now. Doesn't seem to hurt TV though. I find the current owners in TO do not outright defend the Argos or the CFL from media attacks. If they did it could hurt the perception of the other MLSE teams they own. Do you rank quality of players as the measure of a league?

One glaring statistic the Argos-CFL have in their favor is the number of players available to it from the NCAA - U Sports teams compared to other leagues. CFL is resource rich. Problem is no one knows. Out of 16500 graduates every year from the college football ranks there is only a few hundred drafted between the 2 leagues. Work any math you want to, it will show that it is impossible not to have a blending of players between the NFL CFL. Throw in the fact that it is people making people decisions with no real foundation of science in a selection and you will understand why the NFL gets it wrong as much as it gets it right. Right now I look upon the NFL and CFL like Starbucks and Tim Hortons. If you go to a Starbucks you pay 5X more for a cup of coffee but the beans come from the same place. If you want better players than the other league than you take the players from college and nurture their growth, can't put them into game situations right away, especially QB's How many QB's have the NFL ruined because they went in to early.

We are in trouble with hockey as the draft eligible players available to it are very small to begin with and the number of kids playing is not increasing. With that in mind, hockey is still the number 1 sport followed in Canada and the perception is that the players must be superior to all other leagues in Canada.

Here is the statistical order of draft eligible players available to all leagues in Canada. This is the stats provided by the NCAA through the NCAA web site for students. 1 football - 2 baseball 3 soccer 4 basketball 5 hockey. add Major Jr A and it still won't change the needle.

My point with the Argo franchise is that peoples perception of the league in TO would be opposite to what I have just shown and it has been falsely portrayed by media through out Canada. Even TSN, the female NHL reporter gave her impression last week discussing Manziel and I could tell she really has no clue, but she was on TSN telling everyone she doesn't follow the league because of player quality!

So how does the perception get changed? 8 million in next CBA and the player salaries will start to overlap again with a percentage making more than the NFL practice roster players and some making more than NFL minimum. That to me is another check box in the perception.
User avatar
Veteran
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:38 am

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by depopulationINC » Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:03 am

Neely2005 wrote:
rhymes with orange wrote:Well, you can start to be cool (relatively speaking of course...this is Toronto) by being a dominant football team over several seasons - something that's eluded this franchise for some time.

And it's not going to happen by starting a 37-year old quarterback who's been slowed by injuries for the past number of seasons. Argos really need to develop a Jonathon Jennings-type of gunslinger.


How old were Allen and Burris when they won the MOP?


How much injury time had they had? Allen misses a shockingly low number of games for that long of a career and being a QB who relied heavily on mobility. Henry was about the same, perhaps actually better. Ray is one of the best when healthy and will be in the HOF, if he can stay in the game he will do good things, unfortunately injury has really been holding him back and he has missed more games than the 2 names you mentioned combined.

Say what one wants about Willy...he seemed to be suffering from PTSD last year...not even joking...if he can get it together he is statistically one of the top 5 most accurate passers in CFL history

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... individual)

Highest Pass Completion Percentage, career (minimum 1000 attempts)

67.97 - Ricky Ray
67.53 - Dave Dickenson
67.23 - Zach Collaros
67.00 - Drew Willy
66.09 - Bo Levi Mitchell
65.58 - Mike Reilly
64.20 - Matt Nichols
63.17 - Travis Lulay
62.83 - Kevin Glenn
62.46 - Henry Burris


yes I understand changes help a QB a fair bit for this number...but still....#4



As for attendance...just win and everything starts sorting itself out. Better gameday times coming, keep up the tailgating.
User avatar
All-Star
 
Posts: 9198
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by pw13 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:57 am

depopulationINC wrote:As for attendance...just win and everything starts sorting itself out.


It's way more complicated than that. Historically, when the Argos won the Grey Cup, their attendance dropped the next season. Happened in 1984, 1992 and 2013. Not sure about 1998 but their attendance was already very low in 1996 and '97 despite having possibly the greatest team in CFL history (back-to-back 17-3 records). I believe attendance went up in 2005, but there is widespread belief that the new owners at that time were papering the house.

Regardless, the org has to turn around 35 years of bad or non-existent marketing. It will take 3-5 years to build attendance to a sustainable and profitable level of 24,000-plus. Winning can't hurt, but more important is being competitive and entertaining. No team wins every year, and any team that relies on winning to succeed off the field will eventually fail.
All-Star
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:16 am

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by slimjim2 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:04 am

Argofan_1000 wrote:Perception in Toronto should be able to be fixed and this is one reason attendance may struggle right now. Doesn't seem to hurt TV though. I find the current owners in TO do not outright defend the Argos or the CFL from media attacks. If they did it could hurt the perception of the other MLSE teams they own. Do you rank quality of players as the measure of a league?

One glaring statistic the Argos-CFL have in their favor is the number of players available to it from the NCAA - U Sports teams compared to other leagues. CFL is resource rich. Problem is no one knows. Out of 16500 graduates every year from the college football ranks there is only a few hundred drafted between the 2 leagues. Work any math you want to, it will show that it is impossible not to have a blending of players between the NFL CFL. Throw in the fact that it is people making people decisions with no real foundation of science in a selection and you will understand why the NFL gets it wrong as much as it gets it right. Right now I look upon the NFL and CFL like Starbucks and Tim Hortons. If you go to a Starbucks you pay 5X more for a cup of coffee but the beans come from the same place. If you want better players than the other league than you take the players from college and nurture their growth, can't put them into game situations right away, especially QB's How many QB's have the NFL ruined because they went in to early.

We are in trouble with hockey as the draft eligible players available to it are very small to begin with and the number of kids playing is not increasing. With that in mind, hockey is still the number 1 sport followed in Canada and the perception is that the players must be superior to all other leagues in Canada.

Here is the statistical order of draft eligible players available to all leagues in Canada. This is the stats provided by the NCAA through the NCAA web site for students. 1 football - 2 baseball 3 soccer 4 basketball 5 hockey. add Major Jr A and it still won't change the needle.

My point with the Argo franchise is that peoples perception of the league in TO would be opposite to what I have just shown and it has been falsely portrayed by media through out Canada. Even TSN, the female NHL reporter gave her impression last week discussing Manziel and I could tell she really has no clue, but she was on TSN telling everyone she doesn't follow the league because of player quality!

So how does the perception get changed? 8 million in next CBA and the player salaries will start to overlap again with a percentage making more than the NFL practice roster players and some making more than NFL minimum. That to me is another check box in the perception.


I agree with most of what you are saying but increasing the CBA?
That would drive the league under. The Argos losing millions and then add another four million to that? the Ticats after years of losing millions are probably breaking even and Ottawa probably doing alright.
The Als owner admitted that he lost quite a bit of money last season. The Lions probably losing money. The Western teams making a small profit.
Doubling the CBA would probably drive up ticket prices and then fans would stay away because of high ticket prices.
All-Star
 
Posts: 1756
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2015 1:28 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by Gornaldatron » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:56 am

The casual fan also doesn't know what the salary cap here is or even what minimum and average salaries are. How many of us here do? I can only vaguely recall that the average salary in the CFL is around $92,000 right now and the minimum for 2017 is $53,000. Changing the salary cap purely for perception is a good way to ruin a business.

What's really going to change fan perception is how much fun people have at games. It's all about atmosphere. When the Argos were winning at the Rogers Centre, people still weren't coming. It's going to be a combination of winning, atmosphere, and cost-effectiveness for the fan. What will also help is consistent scheduling, so having the last five home games on Saturdays with four of those having the same start time is a great start.
Image
User avatar
Veteran
 
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:33 pm
Location: Toronto

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by Argofan_1000 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:18 pm

Gornaldatron wrote:The casual fan also doesn't know what the salary cap here is or even what minimum and average salaries are. How many of us here do? I can only vaguely recall that the average salary in the CFL is around $92,000 right now and the minimum for 2017 is $53,000. Changing the salary cap purely for perception is a good way to ruin a business.

What's really going to change fan perception is how much fun people have at games. It's all about atmosphere. When the Argos were winning at the Rogers Centre, people still weren't coming. It's going to be a combination of winning, atmosphere, and cost-effectiveness for the fan. What will also help is consistent scheduling, so having the last five home games on Saturdays with four of those having the same start time is a great start.



I agree they won't understand the cap but they will understand some of the following Players are leaving for another team or the team can't sign one of their 1st round draft selections or no signing bonuses will be paid as it will put the team over the cap so a player looks elsewhere. They will also notice when there is a big $ signing. don't these things help with perception?

the CFLPA will come after more
User avatar
Veteran
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:38 am

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by depopulationINC » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:24 pm

pw13 wrote:
depopulationINC wrote:As for attendance...just win and everything starts sorting itself out.


It's way more complicated than that. Historically, when the Argos won the Grey Cup, their attendance dropped the next season. Happened in 1984, 1992 and 2013. Not sure about 1998 but their attendance was already very low in 1996 and '97 despite having possibly the greatest team in CFL history (back-to-back 17-3 records). I believe attendance went up in 2005, but there is widespread belief that the new owners at that time were papering the house.

Regardless, the org has to turn around 35 years of bad or non-existent marketing. It will take 3-5 years to build attendance to a sustainable and profitable level of 24,000-plus. Winning can't hurt, but more important is being competitive and entertaining. No team wins every year, and any team that relies on winning to succeed off the field will eventually fail.


It is never more complicated than putting up a consistent team if you provide a good environment to improve attendance. The gameday environment was bad, now it is better. The gameday times were horrible, now it is improved. Winning in 2012 was great, but I know I said it wouldn't make an ounce of difference until other things were resolved, and that has proven to be true. Get some consistency with how things are now, attendance will stabilize. Good ownership will help, because the ownership and future of the team has been a hot mess, so you can't blame people from tuning out. They word a 3rd class citizen at the dome and the facility sucks for football. the anti-CFL media in Toronto does not help, and that is likely the biggest thing holding the team back.
User avatar
All-Star
 
Posts: 9198
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by pw13 » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:32 pm

depopulationINC wrote:It is never more complicated than putting up a consistent team if you provide a good environment to improve attendance. The gameday environment was bad, now it is better. The gameday times were horrible, now it is improved. Winning in 2012 was great, but I know I said it wouldn't make an ounce of difference until other things were resolved, and that has proven to be true. Get some consistency with how things are now, attendance will stabilize. Good ownership will help, because the ownership and future of the team has been a hot mess, so you can't blame people from tuning out. They word a 3rd class citizen at the dome and the facility sucks for football. the anti-CFL media in Toronto does not help, and that is likely the biggest thing holding the team back.


So how do you explain 1984? Exact same environment as 1978, except the 1984 team was defending GC champs. Yet attendance was way below what it was in 1978, and also below what it was in 1982 and '83. And how do you explain 1992?

Yes, the org now has a good facility and a good schedule and well-heeled ownership. But to think this problem will go away simply by having a winning team ignores the reality of the past 35 years. Much work is needed to bring fans back permanently, and a lot of it has little or nothing to do with the on-field success of the team.
All-Star
 
Posts: 1258
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:16 am

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by depopulationINC » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:51 pm

pw13 wrote:
depopulationINC wrote:It is never more complicated than putting up a consistent team if you provide a good environment to improve attendance. The gameday environment was bad, now it is better. The gameday times were horrible, now it is improved. Winning in 2012 was great, but I know I said it wouldn't make an ounce of difference until other things were resolved, and that has proven to be true. Get some consistency with how things are now, attendance will stabilize. Good ownership will help, because the ownership and future of the team has been a hot mess, so you can't blame people from tuning out. They word a 3rd class citizen at the dome and the facility sucks for football. the anti-CFL media in Toronto does not help, and that is likely the biggest thing holding the team back.


So how do you explain 1984? Exact same environment as 1978, except the 1984 team was defending GC champs. Yet attendance was way below what it was in 1978, and also below what it was in 1982 and '83. And how do you explain 1992?

Yes, the org now has a good facility and a good schedule and well-heeled ownership. But to think this problem will go away simply by having a winning team ignores the reality of the past 35 years. Much work is needed to bring fans back permanently, and a lot of it has little or nothing to do with the on-field success of the team.


I am not going to speak for something 4 decades ago...that is just silly. Right now they need to put up a good team. The gong show Copeland put on this offseason did not help at all. I would say step 1 would be removing him.
User avatar
All-Star
 
Posts: 9198
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:21 pm

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by drummer_god » Sun Mar 12, 2017 7:11 pm

Sara Moore and Michael Copeland need to go. They are clueless and managed to alienate the few fans the Argos do have who were willing to pay for tickets.
Image
User avatar
Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 11607
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 4:43 pm
Location: London, Ont.

PreviousNext

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 64 guests