How do the Argos get 25000 fans?

Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by 2ez » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:07 pm

BCCFLFAN wrote:
slimjim2 wrote:
KevinRiley2 wrote:
The team is not moving. My guess...

Tannen-Bell will (eventually) run the team on a shoe string budget and accept minimal losses to keep the team in Toronto - ala David Braley.


But Braley only had football and loved the league, I don't think he was serious about turning a profit.
Tanebaum is the Chairman of the Argos, he's also Chairman of MLSE and Chairman of TFC.
He is responsible to run the Argos and makes the decisions for Bell.
If he's getting 26k TFC fans turning up on a Tuesday night for a non MLS game, but only 10k fans showing up on an ideal Saturday afternoon game, does he decide that's just not enough fans to support a pro-team?
If the Argos were getting 20k at BMO, that would be a disappointment after the move from the RC, but 10k? that doesn't give him much confidence that there is interest in Toronto.
But who knows what he will do?


Braley is now doing to the BC Lions what he did to the Toronto Argonauts. He has to go and fast. Attendance is dropping every year for the lions.

What's the biggest differences in the B.C market in recent years? What could they being doing differently that Braley might be holding the team back from?
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Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by BCCFLFAN » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:24 pm

Braley is now doing to the BC Lions what he did to the Toronto Argonauts. He has to go and fast. Attendance is dropping every year for the lions.[/quote]
What's the biggest differences in the B.C market in recent years? What could they being doing differently that Braley might be holding the team back from?[/quote]

Bottom line is marketing. When Bob Ackles passed away the team went downhill. Ownership and management are out of touch with the market. They have lost a lot of season ticket holders. Check out lionbackers.com if you want more opinions. Braley is trying to get as much money as he can for the franchise when it is worth much less. Team should have been sold a few years ago. He is greedy.
Last edited by BCCFLFAN on Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by bobo82 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:26 pm

LOL !!! Am I having a Mandela Effect moment here ? When did the title of this thread go from another 10,000 fans to another 15,000 fans ? In fact just looking through the last few pages it seems like depending on the post the number changes randomly from one to the other and vice a versa . Now don't get me wrong here but lets take baby steps here folks . First lets try to get to 10,000 before we shoot for 15,000 fans . Not unless of course you are talking about another 15k fans total for the entire season which would work out to around 1,660 more tickets sold per game . :cowboy:
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Re: How do the Argos get another 10,000 fans

by The Last Word » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:08 pm

Mightygoose wrote:
Aerial wrote:Fair enough slim but I think Mighty was just trying to put financial losses of the Argos in some sort of meaningful context to the discussion related to the the pro sports environment in Toronto. Trying to fit the Argos into that discussion. That's all.


That's exactly the point.

But I guess for some people here with their anti-Argo agenda, they can't seem to handle when these kind of comparisons are brought up.

But when they want to compare the Argos off field woes with the 'current' sucess of the other sports teams in this market, all of the sudden it's not so 'Off Topic' anymore.

So again here is the question for all.

Why is the Argos losing 5 million a year a reason for ownership to bail but the Jays losing 30 million a year the cost of doing business?


Because the Jays aren't losing $30 million a year. They made about $25 - $35 million US last year. Team Salary was around $160 million US last year while the team pulled in nearly $300 million in revenue and that was with a dollar that hovered around .72 - .75 US in 2016. Imagine what the revenues of the Jays would have been with the Canadian dollar at .90 US or higher.

The Jays were purchased for approx. $165 million Canadian back in 2000 or so. The Jays are valued at approx. $1.5 billion. Even when they lose money that pales in comparison to the hundreds of millions (or more like over a billion + dollars) Rogers would profit from selling the team.

Meanwhile the Argos lose $3 - $5 million per season on revenues of approx. $20 million. Not sure what Braley purchased them for (free?, $5 million?) nor am I sure what they sold for, but it is pretty telling that financial details were never released. Let's say $10 million - slightly more than the $7 million Ottawa paid for an expansion team 3 years ago. Even if Tanenbaum and company were somehow able to find a sucker to buy the team for $20 million in a few years, they would likely end up in the red with all those annual losses piling up.

The Argos losing what some deem to be a insignificant amount of money is a bigger deal because there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Team owners will not recoup their losses let alone make any profit once they sell the team because the team's value increases very little over time. ie. Argos sold for approx. $5.5 million at the end of the 80s.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by Aerial » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:22 pm

I beg to differ The Last Word. While the Argos aren't worth much at all, it also is easy to shut them down. The CFL has operated with 8 teams and can do so again. It's nothing for TanenBell to operate them for a few seasons and see what happens and if no go, shut them down.

Now the Jays are worth so much Rogers knows they can't sell them in all liklihood to a Canadian willing to keep them in Canada, the fallout for their "Canadian brand" at Rogers with the Jays would drop and quick if the Jays were sold to someone wanting to move them to the US. So sure, it's nice to be stuck with the Jays finally making money for them but Rogers is sort of stuck one way or another keeping the Jays, winning or losing on ledger sheet. They are not a shut-down if need be franchise, The Argos are. They just aren't a huge deal for TanenBell any way you look at it. Both have a lot of money to see what happens over the next couple years or maybe somewhat longer. The money isn't big enough to worry over the short term.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by The Last Word » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:13 pm

Aerial wrote:I beg to differ The Last Word. While the Argos aren't worth much at all, it also is easy to shut them down. The CFL has operated with 8 teams and can do so again. It's nothing for TanenBell to operate them for a few seasons and see what happens and if no go, shut them down.

Now the Jays are worth so much Rogers knows they can't sell them in all liklihood to a Canadian willing to keep them in Canada, the fallout for their "Canadian brand" at Rogers with the Jays would drop and quick if the Jays were sold to someone wanting to move them to the US. So sure, it's nice to be stuck with the Jays finally making money for them but Rogers is sort of stuck one way or another keeping the Jays, winning or losing on ledger sheet. They are not a shut-down if need be franchise, The Argos are. They just aren't a huge deal for TanenBell any way you look at it. Both have a lot of money to see what happens over the next couple years or maybe somewhat longer. The money isn't big enough to worry over the short term.


I don't think Tanenbaum and Bell will shut down the Argos, even if they lose millions annually in perpetuity. The team and the stability of the CFL is too important to TSN in the near and medium term. It provides TSN with 90 games and approx. 300 hours of content during the summer and fall months and good ratings at that. That in turn allows them to charge premium rates to advertisers - many of whom are located in Toronto - to bring in some much needed revenues. Outside of one-off events, WJHC, the Brier and a few other events nothing provides and ratings and the tied-in advertising revenues for TSN that the CFL does. Having Toronto remain in the league is vital to maintaining this revenue. Still, I am sure it is frustrating for the owners to have to tolerate multi-million losses each year which will not be compensated for with Grey Cup hosting duties every 5-7 years...at least not in the forseeable future.

Rogers ownership of the Jays is indeed a long-term play and an important part of their branding. It provides the company with all sorts of opportunities for free and discounted branding - both at the stadium and on TV. From the name Rogers Centre on the building formerly known as Skydome to the endless promotion of Rogers projects by announcers at the game and signage throughout the stadium right on down to the endless promotion of Rogers on commercials on tv during a 3-hour Blue Jays telecast.

This is why one should raise an eyebrow when Ted Rogers made claims of losing $30 - $50 million a year back in the mid-2000s. Ask yourself how that was possible when the team typically had a total players' salary of $50 - $60 or so million back then...even with crowds of 10,000 - 15,000 on weekdays and 20-25,000 on weekends how could the Jays' losses nearly match the teams' salary which in itself made up a significant portion of the teams' total expenses. How is that possible with all the revenues derived from the naming rights to the dome, all the corporate sponsorships, all the in-stadium advertising, MLB's national sponsorships of which every team receives an equal share, the US national TV deal and Jays tv and radio rights (even in bad years the Jays would be at or near the top in tv viewership among all MLB teams)?

It happens because Rogers does not pay fair market value for the naming rights to the dome, the in-stadium signage and advertising, the regional tv rights. They are basically shifting money from one pocket, the Toronto Blue Jays, to another, Rogers Telecommunications. IF the Blue Jays were owned by some other third party, a non-telecommunications provider, and a true free market competition for tv rights, stadium naming rights, advertising, etc. were to occur, the Jays would be the beneficiaries of tens of million in additional revenue each year. As it stands right now, Rogers is benefiting with discounted advertising of their products and great ratings for their channel due to ownership of the Jays.

Rogers Centre is cold and sterile and one of the least attractive MLB Stadiums but it does have good bones. After years of ownership and being generally cheapskates (I doubt Rogers has even invested $100 million into Skydome after owning the team for nearly two decades), they will be investing $250 - $300 million into it over the next few years for upgrades. I'm sure seating will be reduced (my guess would be 45 - 46,000) as is the trend in MLB stadiums, we will see new seats, revamped concourses, new club seat holder areas, new concessions, new restaurants, new players locker rooms and facilities...maybe even some updates to the awful exterior but I wouldn't my breathe on that last one. All of this will extend the life of the stadium another 25 - 30 years. Much better than building a new stadium at an inferior location outside of downtown for $600 - $650 million.

Jays won't be going anywhere for awhile and where would they go anyways? Where is there a city of comparable size or even half the size of Toronto that currently has a stadium or serious plans for a stadium of at least 35,000? Wait, I will answer that for you - nowhere.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by KevinRiley2 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:19 pm

The Last Word wrote:I don't think Tanenbaum and Bell will shut down the Argos, even if they lose millions annually in perpetuity. The team and the stability of the CFL is too important to TSN in the near and medium term. It provides TSN with 90 games and approx. 300 hours of content during the summer and fall months and good ratings at that. That in turn allows them to charge premium rates to advertisers - many of whom are located in Toronto - to bring in some much needed revenues.

This post shows, when The Last Word is not trying to be a trouble maker, he can be a terrific poster.

:thup:
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by Aerial » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:09 pm

The lingering and unanswered question is if the Argos play to high school crowds, while not that important as I've alluded to for the CFL and TanenBell, is this type of high school crowd on television hurt the TSN CFL brand enough to make it matter, or doesn't this matter? Does this "hurt" the league in a significant matter if the Argos continue to play to very small live crowds?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this question, I certainly don't. I doubt the new commish knows the answer to this as well. :?
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by 2ez » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:35 pm

Aerial wrote:The lingering and unanswered question is if the Argos play to high school crowds, while not that important as I've alluded to for the CFL and TanenBell, is this type of high school crowd on television hurt the TSN CFL brand enough to make it matter, or doesn't this matter? Does this "hurt" the league?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this questions, I certainly don't. I doubt the new commish knows the answer to his as well. :?

I think it definitely takes away from the other teams a little bit, in reality there are only 9 games in Toronto each year, but every time that BMO is on TV I know I get a cringing feeling inside - it just doesn't look good for anybody involved, and I'm sure advertisers feel the same.

How much does it hurt the league overall? I doubt we can ever get an accurate metric, but I don't think it's going to kill the league or anything like that. I kind of find it similar to when you see NHL games in Florida or Tampa and the place is 3/4 empty, my first thoughts are always wow people don't care about hockey in "insert market here", then my second thoughts always travel to what the hell is the league going to do about it, if anything at all. I think the biggest difference in that scenario though is that the NHL has no troubles hiding the likes of Arizona, Tampa, Florida, Carolina etc. They just simply don't give them the time of day when it comes to media coverage, and they can do that easily because there are so many other successful teams in bigger markets. The spotlight is a lot smaller in the CFL, and Toronto is by far Canada's biggest market, which just so happens to be where all the major media hubs/businesses are located, so the league doesn't have the luxury of dusting it under the carpet and diverting people's attention elsewhere.

Argos are the elephant in the room whenever the state of the league is brought up, and sadly I think I'm losing hope. I had a ton of optimism about the move to BMO, but the crowds have now gotten worse...that defies all logic and all the arguments I heard from Argo fans throughout the years about the Rogers Centre/Rogers scaring people off. I guess the damage was permanent and may not be reversible at this point.

My gut instinct says they need to mothball the team for 3-5 years, then let the chips fall where they may. You could have a renaissance of sorts once people realize they lost a franchise that has been in the city since 1873, and a member of one of the only purely Canadian brands left. Or, people could forget all about them, which would leave the league with 8 teams, and you'd like to think they'd be just fine, but who really knows.

All I know is that anybody who is trying to downsize the issue in Toronto is out of there mind, I think it's definitely hurting the league in a lot of ways, but like I said I just don't know how deep the cuts run. My biggest concern is if you lose the Argos, advertisers and businesses might get stuck on the idea that there is no team in Canada's biggest market, and they won't care why or the story behind it.

Basically no Toronto team = less money.

On flip side, you keep the Argos around and advertisers will complains about the eyesore on TV whenever they play at BMO...this situation is truly a mess.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by Aerial » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:49 pm

Great read 2ez.. I guess the other issue is is having one team in the greater GTA area in the TiCats enough for the advertisers to be happy enough without a team in the direct Toronto city proper? :?

Heck of a tilt tonight in Ottawa though, that missed extra point might be the difference... And yes, this missed extra point indeed turned out to be the difference.

One interesting game, good for the Argos to win this one in Ottawa, didn't think they had a chance but they found a way, barely but barely is enough for the W.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by oo DAWG oo » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:40 am

2ez wrote:
Aerial wrote:The lingering and unanswered question is if the Argos play to high school crowds, while not that important as I've alluded to for the CFL and TanenBell, is this type of high school crowd on television hurt the TSN CFL brand enough to make it matter, or doesn't this matter? Does this "hurt" the league?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this questions, I certainly don't. I doubt the new commish knows the answer to his as well. :?

I think it definitely takes away from the other teams a little bit, in reality there are only 9 games in Toronto each year, but every time that BMO is on TV I know I get a cringing feeling inside - it just doesn't look good for anybody involved, and I'm sure advertisers feel the same.

How much does it hurt the league overall? I doubt we can ever get an accurate metric, but I don't think it's going to kill the league or anything like that. I kind of find it similar to when you see NHL games in Florida or Tampa and the place is 3/4 empty, my first thoughts are always wow people don't care about hockey in "insert market here", then my second thoughts always travel to what the hell is the league going to do about it, if anything at all. I think the biggest difference in that scenario though is that the NHL has no troubles hiding the likes of Arizona, Tampa, Florida, Carolina etc. They just simply don't give them the time of day when it comes to media coverage, and they can do that easily because there are so many other successful teams in bigger markets. The spotlight is a lot smaller in the CFL, and Toronto is by far Canada's biggest market, which just so happens to be where all the major media hubs/businesses are located, so the league doesn't have the luxury of dusting it under the carpet and diverting people's attention elsewhere.

Argos are the elephant in the room whenever the state of the league is brought up, and sadly I think I'm losing hope. I had a ton of optimism about the move to BMO, but the crowds have now gotten worse...that defies all logic and all the arguments I heard from Argo fans throughout the years about the Rogers Centre/Rogers scaring people off. I guess the damage was permanent and may not be reversible at this point.

My gut instinct says they need to mothball the team for 3-5 years, then let the chips fall where they may. You could have a renaissance of sorts once people realize they lost a franchise that has been in the city since 1873, and a member of one of the only purely Canadian brands left. Or, people could forget all about them, which would leave the league with 8 teams, and you'd like to think they'd be just fine, but who really knows.

All I know is that anybody who is trying to downsize the issue in Toronto is out of there mind, I think it's definitely hurting the league in a lot of ways, but like I said I just don't know how deep the cuts run. My biggest concern is if you lose the Argos, advertisers and businesses might get stuck on the idea that there is no team in Canada's biggest market, and they won't care why or the story behind it.

Basically no Toronto team = less money.

On flip side, you keep the Argos around and advertisers will complains about the eyesore on TV whenever they play at BMO...this situation is truly a mess.


Does throwing Tampa in there just sound good to you? Did you even look into it or are you playing the "it's a team in the south so the attendance must suck"
Just so you know they ranked 8th this past year averaged over 19,000
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by Argofan_1000 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:32 am

oo DAWG oo wrote:
2ez wrote:
Aerial wrote:The lingering and unanswered question is if the Argos play to high school crowds, while not that important as I've alluded to for the CFL and TanenBell, is this type of high school crowd on television hurt the TSN CFL brand enough to make it matter, or doesn't this matter? Does this "hurt" the league?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this questions, I certainly don't. I doubt the new commish knows the answer to his as well. :?

I think it definitely takes away from the other teams a little bit, in reality there are only 9 games in Toronto each year, but every time that BMO is on TV I know I get a cringing feeling inside - it just doesn't look good for anybody involved, and I'm sure advertisers feel the same.

How much does it hurt the league overall? I doubt we can ever get an accurate metric, but I don't think it's going to kill the league or anything like that. I kind of find it similar to when you see NHL games in Florida or Tampa and the place is 3/4 empty, my first thoughts are always wow people don't care about hockey in "insert market here", then my second thoughts always travel to what the hell is the league going to do about it, if anything at all. I think the biggest difference in that scenario though is that the NHL has no troubles hiding the likes of Arizona, Tampa, Florida, Carolina etc. They just simply don't give them the time of day when it comes to media coverage, and they can do that easily because there are so many other successful teams in bigger markets. The spotlight is a lot smaller in the CFL, and Toronto is by far Canada's biggest market, which just so happens to be where all the major media hubs/businesses are located, so the league doesn't have the luxury of dusting it under the carpet and diverting people's attention elsewhere.

Argos are the elephant in the room whenever the state of the league is brought up, and sadly I think I'm losing hope. I had a ton of optimism about the move to BMO, but the crowds have now gotten worse...that defies all logic and all the arguments I heard from Argo fans throughout the years about the Rogers Centre/Rogers scaring people off. I guess the damage was permanent and may not be reversible at this point.

My gut instinct says they need to mothball the team for 3-5 years, then let the chips fall where they may. You could have a renaissance of sorts once people realize they lost a franchise that has been in the city since 1873, and a member of one of the only purely Canadian brands left. Or, people could forget all about them, which would leave the league with 8 teams, and you'd like to think they'd be just fine, but who really knows.

All I know is that anybody who is trying to downsize the issue in Toronto is out of there mind, I think it's definitely hurting the league in a lot of ways, but like I said I just don't know how deep the cuts run. My biggest concern is if you lose the Argos, advertisers and businesses might get stuck on the idea that there is no team in Canada's biggest market, and they won't care why or the story behind it.

Basically no Toronto team = less money.

On flip side, you keep the Argos around and advertisers will complains about the eyesore on TV whenever they play at BMO...this situation is truly a mess.


Does throwing Tampa in there just sound good to you? Did you even look into it or are you playing the "it's a team in the south so the attendance must suck"
Just so you know they ranked 8th this past year averaged over 19,000


League has been fighting 1 agenda from Rogers/Fan 590 for years. To hurt the brand and thus increase the profile and profit of the BJ's and Rogers. Fan 590 never talked about the Argos except in a negative light. 3 things in the news from them whenever it was appropriate - attendance - loosing money - TV ratings following that with a minor league painting over the airways. It was classic brain washing and the younger crowd took it all in. Always push the negative agenda.

Big problem is the league and Argos really can't say anything, they needed a champion from outside such as Bell or TSN. These 2 have been silent. Last year it was one of the sponsors that warned Rogers. Who was it as I will give them all of my business. This is the problem here in TO. To start with it needs to be said over the air before we can start to mend the brand and implement all of the good ideas to improve things.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by 2ez » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:45 am

oo DAWG oo wrote:
2ez wrote:
Aerial wrote:The lingering and unanswered question is if the Argos play to high school crowds, while not that important as I've alluded to for the CFL and TanenBell, is this type of high school crowd on television hurt the TSN CFL brand enough to make it matter, or doesn't this matter? Does this "hurt" the league?

I don't think anyone knows the answer to this questions, I certainly don't. I doubt the new commish knows the answer to his as well. :?

I think it definitely takes away from the other teams a little bit, in reality there are only 9 games in Toronto each year, but every time that BMO is on TV I know I get a cringing feeling inside - it just doesn't look good for anybody involved, and I'm sure advertisers feel the same.

How much does it hurt the league overall? I doubt we can ever get an accurate metric, but I don't think it's going to kill the league or anything like that. I kind of find it similar to when you see NHL games in Florida or Tampa and the place is 3/4 empty, my first thoughts are always wow people don't care about hockey in "insert market here", then my second thoughts always travel to what the hell is the league going to do about it, if anything at all. I think the biggest difference in that scenario though is that the NHL has no troubles hiding the likes of Arizona, Tampa, Florida, Carolina etc. They just simply don't give them the time of day when it comes to media coverage, and they can do that easily because there are so many other successful teams in bigger markets. The spotlight is a lot smaller in the CFL, and Toronto is by far Canada's biggest market, which just so happens to be where all the major media hubs/businesses are located, so the league doesn't have the luxury of dusting it under the carpet and diverting people's attention elsewhere.

Argos are the elephant in the room whenever the state of the league is brought up, and sadly I think I'm losing hope. I had a ton of optimism about the move to BMO, but the crowds have now gotten worse...that defies all logic and all the arguments I heard from Argo fans throughout the years about the Rogers Centre/Rogers scaring people off. I guess the damage was permanent and may not be reversible at this point.

My gut instinct says they need to mothball the team for 3-5 years, then let the chips fall where they may. You could have a renaissance of sorts once people realize they lost a franchise that has been in the city since 1873, and a member of one of the only purely Canadian brands left. Or, people could forget all about them, which would leave the league with 8 teams, and you'd like to think they'd be just fine, but who really knows.

All I know is that anybody who is trying to downsize the issue in Toronto is out of there mind, I think it's definitely hurting the league in a lot of ways, but like I said I just don't know how deep the cuts run. My biggest concern is if you lose the Argos, advertisers and businesses might get stuck on the idea that there is no team in Canada's biggest market, and they won't care why or the story behind it.

Basically no Toronto team = less money.

On flip side, you keep the Argos around and advertisers will complains about the eyesore on TV whenever they play at BMO...this situation is truly a mess.


Does throwing Tampa in there just sound good to you? Did you even look into it or are you playing the "it's a team in the south so the attendance must suck"
Just so you know they ranked 8th this past year averaged over 19,000

Like how out of all of that you cherrypick that...I stand corrected I was wrong didn't realize how great their attendance numbers have been, but my point still stands regardless of whether the Lightning get good attendance or not. I like how you also ignore that my point is still valid if you consider the Coyotes, Hurricanes or Panthers...all southern clubs by the way.

I don't care if I am corrected, I like when someone can set me straight on anything but don't be a d*** about it for the sake of being d***. Provide some substance to the conversation instead.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by Aerial » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:01 am

Argofan_1000 wrote:
Big problem is the league and Argos really can't say anything, they needed a champion from outside such as Bell or TSN. These 2 have been silent. Last year it was one of the sponsors that warned Rogers. Who was it as I will give them all of my business. This is the problem here in TO. To start with it needs to be said over the air before we can start to mend the brand and implement all of the good ideas to improve things.


Didn't know that Argofan that one of Rogers sponsors had warned them. Very interesting. I know the Argos have a great group of fans even if this group has become small, CFL fans, like yourself, and you guys are to be congratulated with the toxic environment towards the CFL that Rogers has been spewing for quite some number of years.
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Re: How do the Argos get another 15,000 fans

by BCCFLFAN » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:45 pm

"Big problem is the league and Argos really can't say anything, they needed a champion from outside such as Bell or TSN. These 2 have been silent. Last year it was one of the sponsors that warned Rogers. Who was it as I will give them all of my business. This is the problem here in TO. To start with it needs to be said over the air before we can start to mend the brand and implement all of the good ideas to improve things.[/quote]"

I can't believe that the CFL has not sued Rogers. Big mistake to let them get away with it.
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