Aerial

Pat, no offence, but the NHL in Hamilton. hahahhaha :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*

What a joke, never ever going to happen, the Rays have a better chance of moving to Mont Royal than the city of Eisenberger ever will have will the NHL especially in that arena in Hamilton.  Needs so much money to be NHL "ready" not going to happen with the Leafs and Sabres making sure it doesn't happen.  Hamilton is toast with the NHL, worst thing they did was build that arena way back when.  It set the city back decades to get an NHL team as now they are stuck with the place.

:P

Hamilton is not on the NHL radar at all except as a toilet seat.  Mind you I must admit I've heard Fred loves toilet seats.  :-*
I'm not allowed to comment on lousy officiating - Former Saints General Manager Jim Fink

ArgoT

Have we not had enough scandalous building/games involved and paid for by the taxpayers.
Here is only a few that I can recall.

1. Olympic Stadium - like McDonalds over 1B+ served, we will likely pay for this ugly monstrosity way after it is demolished. Prior to the Montreal 76 Olympics with then Mayor Jean Drapeau famously stating how the games can no more have a deficit than a man could have a baby.
2. Skydome - original taxpayers budget was $200M, ended up for $600M+, then sold bargain basement for $25M, tell me that's not a further scandal.
3. Toronto Pan Scam Games - originally budget was around $100M for a third rate event, ended up around $400M+.

Bottom line, the politicians or entrepreneurs cannot be trusted when there is taxpayers funds/land  involved.

Aerial

Yes ArgoT and your post reminds me that we should all visit, from time to time, Field of Schemes, to keep us honest on this arena/stadium schtick thingy:

http://www.fieldofschemes.com

It's not that arenas and stadiums are necessarily bad investments for cities, it just that such investments really need to be looked at if they make sense in whatever city in light of other financial pressures such and such a city is under.  Does it make sense for Joe Blow taxpayer?  That IS the question IMHO.

But most cities want nice new and shiny stadiums and big pro teams to make them look relevant and to hide their real problems that won't ever go away.  The way it is I guess.  :-\

ArgoT

Good site Earl, thanks.
If any one else has other similar sites it would be awesome to share with us here.

TravelPat1

You won't hear that many Ti-Cats fans complain too much about the Pan Am games since we got THF out of  the deal with minimum contributions from the city itself. 

And Earl I know NOW there is no way that Hamilton will get an NHL team - but had we gotten one when we were expected to - as an expansion team instead of Ottawa - or when we came close to getting Nashville - even had 15,000 people send in deposits of a few hundred bucks each on season tickets and there had even been drawings for renovations to the arena at that time, raising the roof, adding private boxes, bring capacity up to 19,000 - had we gotten the team one of those times -  Hamilton's downtown would be WAY further along with its redevelopment than it is now. 

KevinRiley2

You won't hear that many Ti-Cats fans complain too much about the Pan Am games since we got THF out of  the deal with minimum contributions from the city itself.
Glad we got it.  Now it's time to turn off the taps.  No more money for stadiums.
* Kevin Riley = The moral conscience AND movie reviewer for cfl.ca.  :)
* When in doubt, always ask (WWKD) What Would Kevin Do?
* Forgive me for always taking the High Road.  It's the ONLY Road I know.

KevinRiley2

Have we not had enough scandalous building/games involved and paid for by the taxpayers.
Here is only a few that I can recall.

1. Olympic Stadium - like McDonalds over 1B+ served, we will likely pay for this ugly monstrosity way after it is demolished. Prior to the Montreal 76 Olympics with then Mayor Jean Drapeau famously stating how the games can no more have a deficit than a man could have a baby.
2. Skydome - original taxpayers budget was $200M, ended up for $600M+, then sold bargain basement for $25M, tell me that's not a further scandal.
3. Toronto Pan Scam Games - originally budget was around $100M for a third rate event, ended up around $400M+.

Bottom line, the politicians or entrepreneurs cannot be trusted when there is taxpayers funds/land  involved.
Agree.  Shut it down.  NO tax dollars for stadiums or (summer) Olympics.

The Last Word

Hamilton would probably be without a CFL team at this point if it weren't for the Pan Am games.  Undertaker Bob had lost a reported $30 million in the old dump with virtually nil suites or high end seating options and tonnes of ticket giveaways over 10 years or so.  He would have tired of losing another $10 million in the following 4 - 5 years and given the city's inability to get anything done without Toronto holding their hands, there would have been no agreement on a publicly funded stadium.  The fact is, if it were not for Toronto's ambitious pursuit of the Pan Am games, the Ti-Cats would have folded.

As for Montreal, I can definitely see an agreement between the province, city and owners for funding of the new $500 - $550 million ballpark in downtown Montreal.  This would take a fair bit of drawn-out negotiating.

Maybe $125 - $150 million from the city, $125 - $150 million from the province, $150 - $200 million from the owners and another $100 million or so from a ticket tax...or maybe the naming rights, which are sure to lucrative - $100 - $150 million over 20 - 25 years.  

Of course, I think most if not all the funding should be private as sports teams do not provide any net economic benefit to a city as a whole.  Nonetheless, I can see a near 50-50 private/public partnership in this venture.

The Rays have a lease until 2027 so there is plenty of time for this to be resolved.  Of course, the owner can break the lease and pay $42 million minus $4 million or so per year after 2016, and sell or move the team to Montreal or whichever city is willing to offer up a new stadium.  So at this point breaking the lease would be about $38 million.

Rest assured, Bell would be involved with this ownership group as it would provide them with desirable content for 6-7 months of the year on TSN.  It might also lead to some CFL games being broadcast on CTV as there would be several times between June - October that a CFL team and the Expos would be playing simultaneously. 

KevinRiley2

Quebec I broke so let's hope they say no.

TravelPat1

Quebec I broke so let's hope they say no.
Quebec has actually posted budget surpluses the last two years although it does still have a high debt.  

I think a couple of hundred million may be a wise investment for the province based on the return they would see from economic impact of a team over the long term assuming they could come up with the rest of the financing of a stadium from other sources.  The economic impact each year from just a few weekend series against the Jays, Yankees and Red Sox (about a 5 hours drive from Boston - about the same distance as Toronto) each year - could be quite significant.  

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-05/quebec-s-leitao-open-to-personal-tax-cuts-after-budget-surplus

KevinRiley2

Quebec I broke so let's hope they say no.
Quebec has actually posted budget surpluses the last two years although it does still have a high debt.  

I think a couple of hundred million may be a wise investment for the province based on the return they would see from economic impact of a team over the long term assuming they could come up with the rest of the financing of a stadium from other sources.  The economic impact each year from just a few weekend series against the Jays, Yankees and Red Sox (about a 5 hours drive from Boston - about the same distance as Toronto) each year - could be quite significant.  

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-05/quebec-s-leitao-open-to-personal-tax-cuts-after-budget-surplus
No.  That's like saying, "I didn't add any more to my credit card debt this month, and I actually paid the minimum, so now I can spend like crazy NEXT month."

When you owe $184 Billion (let that number sink in for a bit), you don't buy a new stadium no one needs.

http://www.debtclock.ca/provincial-debtclocks/quebec/quebec-s-debt/

http://www.iedm.org/27-quebec-debt-clock

NO MORE PUBLIC MONEY FOR STADIUMS!!!

KevinRiley2

Let's hope the mayor loses the election in November, because the opposition will hold a referendum on a stadium. 

KevinRiley2

Let's hope Montreal learns a lesson from the NHL/Quebec City and says "NO" to a new stadium.

TravelPat1

But their latest budget includes a plan for $91 billion in infrastructure spending the next decade and over $1.2 billion on the tourism spending in the provincial budget - so  out of those budgets a couple of hundred million dedicated towards a stadium is not that much of a stretch considering the potential return.  

Quebec and Montreal combined have about 11% tax on hotels in that city (not counting Federal GST) and tens of thousands of room nights each year from hotels alone would give the province and city a good return, never mind the impact of all those extra visitors over multiple weeks and weekends each year and their economic impact through money spent shopping, restaurants, taxes on game tickets, and the free advertising you get from millions watching on TV games from your city. 

People from Tourism Toronto who I worked with when I lived in that city will tell you the publicity garnered for Toronto through exposure across North America from their major league teams has been worth tens of millions to that city's tourism business each and every year. 

KevinRiley2

But their latest budget includes a plan for $91 billion in infrastructure spending the next decade and over $1.2 billion on the tourism spending in the provincial budget - so  out of those budgets a couple of hundred million dedicated towards a stadium is not that much of a stretch considering the potential return.  

Quebec and Montreal combined have about 11% tax on hotels in that city (not counting Federal GST) and tens of thousands of room nights each year from hotels alone would give the province and city a good return, never mind the impact of all those extra visitors over multiple weeks and weekends each year and their economic impact through money spent shopping, restaurants, taxes on game tickets, and the free advertising you get from millions watching on TV games from your city.

People from Tourism Toronto who I worked with when I lived in that city will tell you the publicity garnered for Toronto through exposure across North America from their major league teams has been worth tens of millions to that city's tourism business each and every year.
NO MORE TAX MONEY FOR PUBLIC STADIUMS!!!

If you want a stadium, pay for it privately - feel free to kick in your own money.
 


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