KevinRiley2

I doubt the Jays lose money this year.  Payroll is around 180 million or so but the team averages over 40,000 in the stands, still have average ratings in the 700,000 - 800,000 range.  Their revenues are close to $300 million US even with the Canadian dollar around .75 for most of the year.
I don't have the link readily available, but the payroll is $200M.

Plus, we need to add in the cost such as :

1) Their minor league teams,
2) Travel - for all Jays related teams,
3) Coaching - for all Jays related teams,
4) Maintenance of the Rogers center, etc.

Once you add it all in, I would not be surprised is they lose money in 2017.

As Old Man Rogers said, for years they were losing tens of millions annually, so I would not be surprised if they still do.
The $200 million payroll is from sportrac which is  generally not regarded as reliable as other sights for MLB salaries as they count entire yearly salaries of players no longer with the team (whether the player is traded, option not exercised, etc).  Also, minor league teams have to carry a portion of the costs of the players on the team as well).  A significant portion of the players are making minor league salaries outside their initial signing bonuses and the minor league clubs are responsible for this as well as transportation, living costs, per diems, equipment.  Travel, coaching, maintenance, scouting is a decent amount but I doubt it adds up to more than $50 - $60 million US.  Rogers has been pretty cheap when it comes to Rogers Centre upgrades and maintenance.  They have owned the team for nearly 2 decades and I wouldn't be surprised if maintenance and upgrades have amounted to $100 million or less...I know upgrades are probably less than $50 million.  We will see what happens with these proposed $200 - $250 million renos though.
Do you actually believe old man Rogers when he said he lost $300 million or whatever outrageous number he claimed to be losing on the Jays or do you WANT to believe what he said because you have a case of schadenfraude when it comes to the Jays? ;)  Do you believe Wettenhall and other media sources when a recent number surfaced that the Als were losing $1 million or more per year due to falling attendance and a severe drop in corporate support thanks to the previous president/vice president?  Why believe one and not the other?
With regards to the Jays, since Rogers owns the team, do you think they are paying fair market value for the naming rights to the stadium , tv rights for all the games, advertising for Rogers products both at the stadium and during commercials on tv?  Maybe this is the reason for those claims of $300 million in losses - Rogers was paying far below market value for all those above-mentioned advertising mediums vs. what they would have received if they sold those all those rights (stadium naming rights, advertising in-game, advertising on tv and regional tv rights).  Major league baseball does have rules regarding minimums an owner that happens to be a telecommunications provider can charge itself for those television and advertising rights, but they are minimums not true market values.  The bottom line is, Rogers is basically transferring revenues from the baseball team to the telecommunications provider...below market value to the baseball teams for the above-mentioned items I covered in exchange for increased exposure to the Rogers brand which ultimately results in improved revenues through the sale of their sports channels and other products.
Even when the Jays had relatively "poor" ratings of 300,000 per game 5 or 6 years, those were among the best in baseball, and those became the best the past 3 or so seasons.  What should the Jays tv rights truly be worth if they were on the open market?  Teams like the Angels, Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Astros, Rangers, and a few others have contracts that pay them upwards of 100 million US per year.  Probably a reasonable number for the Jays given they outdraw several of those teams by  huge margin...even in down years...but I doubt Rogers pays anywhere close to that because they can get away with it.
I realize some of what I believe contradicts other things I believe, but that is because it is impossible to know what the Left and Right hand are doing when it comes to the Jays.

You have written so much, I am sure I have missed some points.

***

I agree with most of what you wrote.  The exceptions...

* Travel, coaching, maintenance, scouting is a decent amount but I doubt it adds up to more than $50 - $60 million US.  

I`m sure it is far, far more than you believe.  Someone wrote that the reason NFL franchises are worth so much more than MLB franchises - no minor League costs, which are huge.  Someone also wrote (I could not find the quote) that for every dollar an MLB team pays in salary, they pay an additional dollar in other costs.

* Rogers has been pretty cheap when it comes to Rogers Centre upgrades and maintenance.

You don`t know that.  Again, my guess, it costs far more to run and maintain than we can ever imagine.  Just like a car or a home, it looks cheap from the outside but they are money pits.

***

As for your questions...

*Do you actually believe old man Rogers when he said he lost $300 million or whatever outrageous number he claimed to be losing on the Jays or do you WANT to believe what he said because you have a case of schadenfraude when it comes to the Jays? ;)

Yes, I believe it. There is no upside to lying.

*Do you believe Wettenhall and other media sources when a recent number surfaced that the Als were losing $1 million or more per year due to falling attendance and a severe drop in corporate support thanks to the previous president/vice president?  

Yes, I believe it.

* Why believe one and not the other?

I believe both.

* Do you think they are paying fair market value for the naming rights to the stadium...

Yes - for tax reasons.

* Do you think they are paying fair market value for TV rights...

No.

* Advertising for Rogers products both at the stadium and during commercials on tv?

I think the Jays and CFL package are BOTH highly UNDERvalued.

* The bottom line is, Rogers is basically transferring revenues from the baseball team to the telecommunications provider

I agree.  It is a left hand, right hand situation, so no one knows, so I will take Old Man Rogers` word on it.

Re :"What should the Jays tv rights truly be worth if they were on the open market?  Teams like the Angels, Dodgers, Red Sox, Yankees, Astros, Rangers, and a few others have contracts that pay them upwards of 100 million US per year."

I believe Rogers downplays the value of their TV Rights.  In fact, because it is Canadian Content, I'm sure it is worth even more than you believe.

But, of course, if the Jays TV Rights are worth far more that what Rogers is paying, the same can be said for the CFL Rights, because we get similar ratings.  I believe TSN and Rogers collude to keep the real value for Canadian Content in line.

My guess : The Jays TV package is worth about $200M - in a free and open market.

The CFL package is worth about $100M - again, in a free and open market.  
* Kevin Riley = The moral conscience AND movie reviewer for cfl.ca.  :)
* When in doubt, always ask (WWKD) What Would Kevin Do?
* Forgive me for always taking the High Road.  It's the ONLY Road I know.

Lyle B. Style

2018 Jays should do as follows:

1. Cut ties with Jose Bautista (guy is in severe decline, just buy him out and let him wash out thru a couple of bottom-feeders)

2. Big problem with Troy Tulowhiffski - guaranteed contract of 20 million plus for next few seasons. Despite his professionalism and attention to detail he's a shell of the expectation the Jays had when they took him on. Slightly below average bat - slightly above average glove. Not worth the coin. Slight potential for Jays to swap him for prospects.

3. Russell Martin - no longer a force behind the plate. Slightly above average catcher who can no longer play the majority of games. Hitting at Bautista levels no which is unacceptable. His potential has always been what I've touted it to be - next Blue Jays manager.

4. Kevin Pillar - this obscenity-laced gem is an above average centre-fielder who wields an average bat. Not really a complete player, good 7th or 8th hitter for a variety of teams. Just won't yield much in trade, possibly a prospect and a long or middle reliever.

5. Justin Smoak - Smokey has put up incredible numbers (near .300 average, 32 HRs) but he's now into a major downslide. And that's with Jays in mostly no-pressure nothing games. He'll end up with an average somewhere between .275 and .282 w/ 35 to 37 HRs. He's tradeable and the Jays might be lucky to get something of value for him.

6. Osuna - very good to great (at times) closer. Is it sustainable? Doubt it! Relievers like the Yankee guy don't come around that often.

7. Aaron Sanchez - inexplicable blister problems this year. Can it be rectified? Probably! Would rather have a workhorse like Chris Sale (despite his despicable personality) than the milquetoast Sanchez. Who wouldn't?

8. Porky Morales - will provide 30 to 35 dingers but strikes out a ton. No speed on bases - the Andre the Giant of base-runners. Doesn't hurt or help - would rather have Edwin Encarnacion but Edwin isn't that much of an improvement either.

9. Barney/Goins - 2 good middle-infielders with low-power bats and feeble batting averages. Near gold glove guys but the batting weakness doesn't help matters.

10. Gibby - despite the mass consumption of seeds, double bubble and mountain dew I think the Jays could do better.

The deficiencies:

No Joe Carter, No Roberto Alomar, No George Bell, No Devon White. No Carlos Delgado. No Dave Stieb. No Tom Henke. Other than that, great!
WAITING FOR A  MIRACLE - 27 YEARS, COUNTING!

Lyle B. Style

WOW - can't believe I'm saying this but Jays are actually showing signs of life. With vermin like Tulowhiffski off the team (self-induced injury) and Rusty Martin on the 10-game (he was ready to give out all season) the Jays are actually doing things with baby jays coming up from various minor leagues.

Sarge pitching well into the 7th inning in yesterday's tremendous win is one thing.

But if they get back Lanky Sanchez to initially pitch long to middle relief they may be legit contenders for the 1-game wild card shot!

Barney & Goins are doing yeomen work in mid-infield though neither will ever be confused with               . Rob Refusnyder is a baseball hobo - he's a tryer but basically MLB refuse.

Justin Smoak is slowly coming back down to earth after his amazing 1 game all-star episode. He'll gradually fall to sub .285 levels & his HR production appears to be grinding to a slow halt!
The kids behind the plate to replace the grizzled and gnarled Martin?  Amazing!

Steve Pearce is a very good hitter but average left-fielder. Bautista is still hitting dingers but his .215 average is disconcerting. However if his August and September play continue to improve he could be the fulcrum to jettison a mediocre and team of replacements into the wild card.

Same with Morales - a spot slugger who can't handle change-ups - and Pillar, who seems static after a great start to the year.

TEAM OF REPLACEMENTS - its getting interesting!

ActionNews


Jays are in big trouble Lyle. they are will never win the division in another 20 years. red sox/yankees/rays are so ahead of them its not even funny. and the orioles are even ahead of the jays.

its going to be fun watching a toronto team struggle once again.

Lyle B. Style

Unless they lose their next 5 or 6 in a row (entirely possible I might add) they'll be playing meaningful baseball in late August to early September (at the least).

Not enough great players to compete with NYY or Red Sox for the eastern title but setting up for 20 years of anxiety-ridden challenges for lower level playoff seedings.

Rogers loves the profits the Jays bring - also filling hundreds of hours of otherwise dead-air (think Timid Sid or McClown, Jeff Blair, etc.) with baseball broadcasts. . . . . . but obviously the Rogers org. not willing to up the ante in terms of investment in this team.

KevinRiley2

They announced 32K(?).  Looked like <20K.

The Last Word

Hard to believe they are only 3 games back of the wild card spot although even this Blue jays fan just doesn't see them sustaining their current hot streak given the injuries and lack of depth with the position players and the pitchers.  It sure is a tortoise race with the Angels of all teams in the final wild card spot only 3 games above .500.  It could very well be 84 or 85 wins might just be enough to clinch.

Donaldson is back to being elite.  Another 2 homers today and his OBP is nearly .400 while his OPS is above .900.  He appears to have overcome whatever nagging injuries he had back in June/July.

Lyle B. Style

Hard to believe they are only 3 games back of the wild card spot although even this Blue jays fan just doesn't see them sustaining their current hot streak given the injuries and lack of depth with the position players and the pitchers.  It sure is a tortoise race with the Angels of all teams in the final wild card spot only 3 games above .500.  It could very well be 84 or 85 wins might just be enough to clinch.

Donaldson is back to being elite.  Another 2 homers today and his OBP is nearly .400 while his OPS is above .900.  He appears to have overcome whatever nagging injuries he had back in June/July.
Agree about Josh D. Guy has to be kept for next few years. Trouble is - with Bautista batting a pitiful .210 the Jays don't have another legit and diverse power-hitter in the lineup. Yeah, I know Smokey is wonderful but he's susceptible to above average pitching - not as bad as Whifftista or Tulowhiffski but still bad. He needed Tampa to put in a rube tonite to escape with the 2 run dinger.
If they had Donaldson, Joey Bats, Smoak & Martin going full tilt - w/ Steve Pearce & Porky Morales throwing in some extra sauce they might be OK.
But Tulo is both injured - and washed. Bautista is a badly fading player. Morales is slow and susceptible to change-ups. Still fairly interesting ball being played now.

TravelPat1

Who would have ever guessed 5-6 weeks ago that Osuna would blow five 2+ run leads in just the last few weeks and become a bit of a goat of late. 

Even just eliminating two of those blown multiple run lead saves and the Jays would be right in the thick of the Wild Card race. 

I had a few friends amongst the several thousand Jays fans in Chicago this weekend who had a blast at Wrigley this weekend. What an atmosphere at the games all weekend. 

Today they were even on the famous rooftop bleacher seats overlooking the stadium from across the street beyond left field.. Apparently so many Jays fans quickly snapped up tickets once the schedule came out last September that this series sold out within an hour of Cubs tickets going on sale. The fastest sellout for any Cubs series all season. 

A weekend that even saw Don Cherry singing the iconic 7th Inning Stretch 'Take Me Out to the Ball Game' during the 7th inning stretch at Wrigley Field yesterday. And because he is such a Jays fans likely one of the first ever to have that honour to not say 'root, root, root for the Cubbies - if they don't win it's a shame'.  Instead he walked up the middle singing 'root, root, root for the best team..... ' 

Oh well at least the games were interesting unlike most of my Cats' games this season. But I wouldn't mind a few more wins guys.  lol

The Last Word

At best, I thought the Jays would win 1 of 3 against the Cubs.  Even though they were only 3 games back of the wold card going into the series I just couldn't see them putting together enough wins to scratch their way into the playoffs.  Not enough pitching depth - numbers 4 and 5 pitchers stink and are not really starters; injuries, lack of depth, and a couple players who are under-performing (or rather this is what they are really like now) in Bautista and Morales.

Lyle B. Style

At best, I thought the Jays would win 1 of 3 against the Cubs.  Even though they were only 3 games back of the wold card going into the series I just couldn't see them putting together enough wins to scratch their way into the playoffs.  Not enough pitching depth - numbers 4 and 5 pitchers stink and are not really starters; injuries, lack of depth, and a couple players who are under-performing (or rather this is what they are really like now) in Bautista and Morales.
Pretty much what u said - Bautista & Porky Morales have really degraded themselves. Jose hasn't even been able to pick up his obligatory 6 to 8 week injury that gives him another (in a long line) of excuses for weak performance.
Morales might be able to help a weaker team generate more dingers for their fans but a legitimate playoff contender wouldn't want a guy who's so weak vs. good pitching. Both guys might try to squeeze another year in major league ball - @@@
#4 & #5 pitchers are trash now.
Like u say - if Osuna didn't come down with the Itchy Mitch virus the Jays would still be struggling for a wild card entry. Now he looks like the 2nd coming of coming in last. Tulowitzki presents a major burden to Rogers albeit with his enormous guaranteed contract for the next 4 or 5 years. What MLB teams is gonna pay a hobo like that 20 million to be a solid glove at short but an atrocity (.220 to .240) hitter?
Goins has potential but basically he's a solid bench player who can assert himself at short or 2nd base - can't hit past .225 but is OK in certain clutch situations.
Martin should be the next Jays manager but will probably catch another season or two (for the big money he's tied to) cuz the Jays have virtually nothing at catcher in the minors.
Smoak, as I stated around all-star time is starting to show he can't maintain a .300 average nor a 45 to 55 home run pace. He'll end up dumpster-diving to below .280 and he'll be lucky to put up 36/38 HRs. (he's got 32/33 now)

Lyle B. Style

Hate pouring hot coffee on a dead corpse - BUT the BlueJays showed last nite why they wouldn't have a sniff - even if they fluked into a wildcard #2 spot.

Heck they'll barely make 70 wins, let alone 80. A real dumpster-fire to be honest!

Chris Sale illustrated why the Jays couldn't proceed - because while they can barely hit vs. hobo pitchers they're virtually pylons vs. masters like Sale.

Sale's 12 KO's in late August vs. a BJ team with nothing to lose - and that came in only 7 innings as they need to preserve Sale's arm as much as possible for post-season. Of his 12 KO's 3 were vs. the totally impotent (now batting .206) Whifftista. And Joey Batz also made his traditional goof in the outfield - being unable to handle a near-routine pop-up to give the Red Sox their first (and eventually winning) run.

So now its just practice time for some hobo Jay players like Pearce, Bautista, Montero, Goins, Carrera, Barney, Refsnagel, etc.

Only a handful of Blow Jays worth keeping around next season.

Josh D, Smokey (who's suffered a predicted dive after the all-star game), and the golden gloved centre-fielder Pillar who's also a bit of a doodle at the plate (but at least his .250 average is far better than 20 to 25 million hitting knobs like Whifftista, Tulowhiffski & Russ 'Can't Catch or Hit but sure can cash 20 million dollar cheques" Martin

Hopefully they get Sanchez back as a solid #2 starter behind Stroman. After that, maybe Estrada, certainly not Joe Don't be-a-Genie, etc. Osuna is starting to show cracks as a closer - perhaps time to move him for better team depth (better young shortstop, right-fielder, etc.)

Not much in the pantry in TO land. If Rogers think they can hide behind mischievous John Gibbons personality they're wrong. If this year is a 70 to 72 win team - next season, keeping dumpster fires like I've mentioned - they could easily be in 60 to 65 win territory. (ie. routine crowds of 20,000 to 23,000 or less)

slimjim2

Who would have ever guessed 5-6 weeks ago that Osuna would blow five 2+ run leads in just the last few weeks and become a bit of a goat of late.

Even just eliminating two of those blown multiple run lead saves and the Jays would be right in the thick of the Wild Card race.

I had a few friends amongst the several thousand Jays fans in Chicago this weekend who had a blast at Wrigley this weekend. What an atmosphere at the games all weekend.

Today they were even on the famous rooftop bleacher seats overlooking the stadium from across the street beyond left field.. Apparently so many Jays fans quickly snapped up tickets once the schedule came out last September that this series sold out within an hour of Cubs tickets going on sale. The fastest sellout for any Cubs series all season.

A weekend that even saw Don Cherry singing the iconic 7th Inning Stretch 'Take Me Out to the Ball Game' during the 7th inning stretch at Wrigley Field yesterday. And because he is such a Jays fans likely one of the first ever to have that honour to not say 'root, root, root for the Cubbies - if they don't win it's a shame'.  Instead he walked up the middle singing 'root, root, root for the best team..... '

Oh well at least the games were interesting unlike most of my Cats' games this season. But I wouldn't mind a few more wins guys.  lol
It's amazing to see so many Jays fans that follow this team on the road even when they are out of the playoff hunt.   Thousands of Jays fans show up in Chicago and Cleveland and the Jays fans from Vancouver sell out in Seatle.    Even when they play the Rays in St Petersburgh,  the stands are full of Jays jerseys.
They may go on a losing streak and out of it early next season but their attendance will still be over 25k which is amazing when they have over 80 home games a year and have to play on Monday, Tuesday nights!!    What's their attendance this year?  over 40k

Aerial

It is quite something for sure. Part of it is so many GTAers transplanted in every community in Canada and partly because the Jays are Canada's only MLB team, and a truly major league team at that that people want to identify with as a true major league team,  and MLB fans don't want the Jays to go the way of the Expos, which would be sad.  But no worries on that front at all it seems!  And it's a road trip to major American cities with nice ballparks so Canadian MLB fans enjoy that, socializing etc.   Nobody cares that the Jays have very Canadians on the team and from what I understand very few players that end up calling Toronto home during their stay as a team member or after they retire.

The Jays franchise, regardless of how their on-field season is going, should be quite well for many, many years to come.  Rogers did good on this one with the Jays after so many seasons where they lost money on the team although Rogers can afford to lose money on the Jays with no worries.  No longer I'm sure.  They'll remain in Canada for a very long time and maybe forever as long as MLB exists, the way they are going.

I'm not allowed to comment on lousy officiating - Former Saints General Manager Jim Fink

KevinRiley2

Who would have ever guessed 5-6 weeks ago that Osuna would blow five 2+ run leads in just the last few weeks and become a bit of a goat of late.

Even just eliminating two of those blown multiple run lead saves and the Jays would be right in the thick of the Wild Card race.

I had a few friends amongst the several thousand Jays fans in Chicago this weekend who had a blast at Wrigley this weekend. What an atmosphere at the games all weekend.

Today they were even on the famous rooftop bleacher seats overlooking the stadium from across the street beyond left field.. Apparently so many Jays fans quickly snapped up tickets once the schedule came out last September that this series sold out within an hour of Cubs tickets going on sale. The fastest sellout for any Cubs series all season.

A weekend that even saw Don Cherry singing the iconic 7th Inning Stretch 'Take Me Out to the Ball Game' during the 7th inning stretch at Wrigley Field yesterday. And because he is such a Jays fans likely one of the first ever to have that honour to not say 'root, root, root for the Cubbies - if they don't win it's a shame'.  Instead he walked up the middle singing 'root, root, root for the best team..... '

Oh well at least the games were interesting unlike most of my Cats' games this season. But I wouldn't mind a few more wins guys.  lol
It's amazing to see so many Jays fans that follow this team on the road even when they are out of the playoff hunt.   Thousands of Jays fans show up in Chicago and Cleveland and the Jays fans from Vancouver sell out in Seatle.    Even when they play the Rays in St Petersburgh,  the stands are full of Jays jerseys.
They may go on a losing streak and out of it early next season but their attendance will still be over 25k which is amazing when they have over 80 home games a year and have to play on Monday, Tuesday nights!!    What's their attendance this year?  over 40k
It's a fad.  I saw the same thing 20+ years ago and then no one cared for almost 2 decades.  Funny how that is forgotten.
 


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