BillyDee87

Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Quote from: "Obrigardo"
In the CFL the only deep in the playoffs is the Grey Cup.

Well, I get your position, but if you go to the big game, that's far better than just making the playoffs or winning a semifinal game.

Quote
The defense was terrible last year so I don't expect a drop off

Was it terrible? This is a general and legitimate question for Cats fan. Based on the games I saw, the D didn't seem horrendous, just non-elite, possibly due to injuries or talent leaving.[/b]

There seems to be something to this line of thought.  The D never seemed to get "run over" and even stop-gap players seemed to be doing a passable job, most of the time.  And to the point of "talent leaving" not one replacement for Harris at LB has even come close to being good enough.

Add to this, the possibility that both D ends are, to use your phrase "just non-elite" and you have the ingredients for an average D.  Granted, Chick was second in the league in sacks, but everyone ran on the D and stopping that starts and ends with the play of the D line.
"For the sake of humanity" is always the credo of tyranny.

disciplineandpunish

Responding to BillyDee's and Grover's comments, it seems like the D may not have been atrocious, but rather inconsistent and lacking some big-play talent. Of course, bad tackling is a concern, no question, but it's not like they were getting giving up 30+ points and multiple TDs game after game.

Also, the problems with run D might also relate to the personnel issues at linebacker.
"I coach good players a lot better than I coach bad players." -Mark Nelson

Obrigardo

Quote from: "BillyDee87"
Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Quote from: "Obrigardo"
In the CFL the only deep in the playoffs is the Grey Cup.

Well, I get your position, but if you go to the big game, that's far better than just making the playoffs or winning a semifinal game.

Quote
The defense was terrible last year so I don't expect a drop off

Was it terrible? This is a general and legitimate question for Cats fan. Based on the games I saw, the D didn't seem horrendous, just non-elite, possibly due to injuries or talent leaving.[/b]

There seems to be something to this line of thought.  The D never seemed to get "run over" and even stop-gap players seemed to be doing a passable job, most of the time.  And to the point of "talent leaving" not one replacement for Harris at LB has even come close to being good enough.

Add to this, the possibility that both D ends are, to use your phrase "just non-elite" and you have the ingredients for an average D.  Granted, Chick was second in the league in sacks, but everyone ran on the D and stopping that starts and ends with the play of the D line.
Only the Argos  and riders gave up more points.that's not an average d.

bobo82

Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Responding to BillyDee's and Grover's comments, it seems like the D may not have been atrocious, but rather inconsistent and lacking some big-play talent. Of course, bad tackling is a concern, no question, but it's not like they were getting giving up 30+ points and multiple TDs game after game.

Also, the problems with run D might also relate to the personnel issues at linebacker.

Actually our D gave up 30 or more points on 10 occasions last season and held opponents to under 20 pts only 3 times.
I attribute the inconsistency  to the revolving door that was our D-Backfield last year due to injury after injury  and also the total lack of continuity at the SAM lb position for the same reasons where we had no less than 6 different players start at one time or another last season. The team never did adequately replace the departed E.Harris at SAM (and still hasn't as of yet this off-season) and losing All-Star Safety Craig Butler for the season didn't help things out either.
15 GREY CUPS for HAMILTON BASED TEAMS
12,13,15,28,29,32,43,53,57,63,65,67,72,86,99

disciplineandpunish

Interesting. I'm curious to know if the points given up stats includes points that were the direct result of turnovers or mistakes on the other two units. Like, in the the 30+ point stat, is a pick-six thrown by the team's QB tacked on to the defense? Or an interception that starts the enemy offense in field goal range on the first drive?

In any case, it does sound like the D was giving up points more than in previous years. I still think it was a long way from being a terrible unit. We'll see what Reinebold can do this year.
"I coach good players a lot better than I coach bad players." -Mark Nelson

Obrigardo

Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Interesting. I'm curious to know if the points given up stats includes points that were the direct result of turnovers or mistakes on the other two units. Like, in the the 30+ point stat, is a pick-six thrown by the team's QB tacked on to the defense? Or an interception that starts the enemy offense in field goal range on the first drive?

In any case, it does sound like the D was giving up points more than in previous years. I still think it was a long way from being a terrible unit. We'll see what Reinebold can do this year.
Picks fumble returns and kick returns all show up as points against

disciplineandpunish

Quote from: "Obrigardo"
Picks fumble returns and kick returns all show up as points against

That seems unfair to a defense. How is your team's QB throwing a pick six your D's fault in any way? Those points were scored when you weren't even on the field!
"I coach good players a lot better than I coach bad players." -Mark Nelson

blackandgld

Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Quote from: "Obrigardo"
Picks fumble returns and kick returns all show up as points against

That seems unfair to a defense. How is your team's QB throwing a pick six your D's fault in any way? Those points were scored when you weren't even on the field!

points allowed just isn't a good measure to use to grade a D anyways.
how is a 109 yard drive for a score measured the same as a pick 6.
Much better statistics to measure a Ds value.

disciplineandpunish

Quote from: "blackandgld"
points allowed just isn't a good measure to use to grade a D anyways.
how is a 109 yard drive for a score measured the same as a pick 6.
Much better statistics to measure a Ds value.

Good point. Points allowed is one metric. I think it has some value, but it isn't and shouldn't be the only metric used in assessing any team's defense. For example, how was Hamilton's D on allowing second-down conversions last year, particularly second and long? What about average time of opposing teams' drives? Number of "length-of-the-field" TD drives allowed by other team? Number of game-losing TDs allowed inside the three-minute warning? Defense against pass? Defense against run? Number of turnovers forced by D? Number of big plays allowed by secondary?

Generally speaking, I'd say we need many different statistics to arrive at a clear idea of what Hamilton's defense was doing right and wrong last year.
"I coach good players a lot better than I coach bad players." -Mark Nelson

ottawacat

One stat, unlikely available, which would weigh heavily in a review of last season's Hamilton D ..... Missed Tackles!

bobo82

Quote from: "ottawacat"
One stat, unlikely available, which would weigh heavily in a review of last season's Hamilton D ..... Missed Tackles!

OUCH !!! Missed  Tackles !  .......there was a TON of them last year  :thdn: I think like if you say the league kept track of this stat , it would be a safe bet to say that if we didn't lead the league in this category then we were at worst top three .  :oops:
15 GREY CUPS for HAMILTON BASED TEAMS
12,13,15,28,29,32,43,53,57,63,65,67,72,86,99

blackandgld

Last year was a mess. Offense struggled which lead to more time for the D on the field. Also the D had so many injuries that they were rarely together as a unit. Hard to measure the Ds worth when a bunch of backups are playing.

disciplineandpunish

I'm no expert, but I'd say missed tackles have something to do with the position coach at the position in question. If your linebackers are missing tackles all over the place, the LB coach has to shoulder some (not all, but some) of the responsibility for not fixing their technique and getting them focused.
"I coach good players a lot better than I coach bad players." -Mark Nelson

Obrigardo

Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Quote from: "Obrigardo"
Picks fumble returns and kick returns all show up as points against

That seems unfair to a defense. How is your team's QB throwing a pick six your D's fault in any way? Those points were scored when you weren't even on the field!
Points scored includes defensive points even though the offence did nothing.I assume the team breaks it down to true numbers

disciplineandpunish

Quote from: "Obrigardo"
Quote from: "disciplineandpunish"
Quote from: "Obrigardo"
Picks fumble returns and kick returns all show up as points against

That seems unfair to a defense. How is your team's QB throwing a pick six your D's fault in any way? Those points were scored when you weren't even on the field!
Points scored includes defensive points even though the offence did nothing.I assume the team breaks it down to true numbers

I assume so too. It's just annoying that the stats that we fans have access to aren't differentiated in meaningful ways. If a team gives up x hundreds of points but a significant chunk of those points are due to offensive ineptitude or special teams breakdowns, we can't and shouldn't be hanging the total on the defense.
"I coach good players a lot better than I coach bad players." -Mark Nelson
 


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