depopulationINC

Quote from: "StormRider1"
Yah something is up for him to make that statement, the sooner the better!!
 :rockin:

Yeah, makes me wonder if what I said last week was true...that terms were all but met while on the road swing and they had to draw it up basically.  Would have thought that would have been wrapped up this week, but perhaps there was some bouncing back and forth to finalize it.

Promising  though....ideally you want to see him around 2-3 more years.

StormRider1

Quote from: "depopulationINC"
Quote from: "StormRider1"
Yah something is up for him to make that statement, the sooner the better!!
 :rockin:

Yeah, makes me wonder if what I said last week was true...that terms were all but met while on the road swing and they had to draw it up basically.  Would have thought that would have been wrapped up this week, but perhaps there was some bouncing back and forth to finalize it.

Promising  though....ideally you want to see him around 2-3 more years.

Yah I agree, unlike some other positions, QB's have a longer shelf life it seems!!

bowl450

If you were Durant , would you resign with the Riders based on last nights performance of the O-Line ?
I know that I wouldn't.
Jones and company have a lot of work to do in the offseason to build a O-Line to keep our QBs upright, I realise that we have a few O-Linemen on the injury list but we know now that we have no depth.

StormRider1

Quote from: "bowl450"
If you were Durant , would you resign with the Riders based on last nights performance of the O-Line ?
I know that I wouldn't.
Jones and company have a lot of work to do in the offseason to build a O-Line to keep our QBs upright, I realise that we have a few O-Linemen on the injury list but we know now that we have no depth.

Trading Fulton was also a huge mistake. But yah, we need an O line that keeps our QB's safe!! Doubles spent to much time this season, eating turf or running for his life. Shame on Corky!!

depopulationINC

Quote from: "StormRider1"
Quote from: "bowl450"
If you were Durant , would you resign with the Riders based on last nights performance of the O-Line ?
I know that I wouldn't.
Jones and company have a lot of work to do in the offseason to build a O-Line to keep our QBs upright, I realise that we have a few O-Linemen on the injury list but we know now that we have no depth.

Trading Fulton was also a huge mistake. But yah, we need an O line that keeps our QB's safe!! Doubles spent to much time this season, eating turf or running for his life. Shame of Corky!!

Let's say 2 players are available:
Player 1 is a Canadian DLman who is a high impact player at DT and believed by almost anyone to have played against the 2 to be the better of he and Stefan Charles (same draft class) and has a couple years of contract.
Player 2 is a proven Import LT who has been been a beast but is also a pending free agent

Your team has seen its 2 best DTs retire or get hurt out of the gate, you have ratio issues, you have 4 LTs 24 or under you are looking at as development options, can look at bringing the LT in under Free Agency if you really want because he lives in your city, and your season is done.

Who do you pick?

bowl450

Quote from: "depopulationINC"
Quote from: "StormRider1"
Quote from: "bowl450"
If you were Durant , would you resign with the Riders based on last nights performance of the O-Line ?
I know that I wouldn't.
Jones and company have a lot of work to do in the offseason to build a O-Line to keep our QBs upright, I realise that we have a few O-Linemen on the injury list but we know now that we have no depth.

Trading Fulton was also a huge mistake. But yah, we need an O line that keeps our QB's safe!! Doubles spent to much time this season, eating turf or running for his life. Shame of Corky!!

Let's say 2 players are available:
Player 1 is a Canadian DLman who is a high impact player at DT and believed by almost anyone to have played against the 2 to be the better of he and Stefan Charles (same draft class) and has a couple years of contract.
Player 2 is a proven Import LT who has been been a beast but is also a pending free agent

Your team has seen its 2 best DTs retire or get hurt out of the gate, you have ratio issues, you have 4 LTs 24 or under you are looking at as development options, can look at bringing the LT in under Free Agency if you really want because he lives in your city, and your season is done.

Who do you pick?

the best defense is a great offence, because you can't score if you don't have the ball,
the 3 man D-Line that Jones is trying to implement, presently doesn't have the right personnel to make it work, as their is no pressure on the opposition QB,
my philosophy is protect your QB at all costs and put the fear of god in theirs, and this is what we have not bein doing lately.
to rectify the ratio issue what positions are we developing Canadians for ?
of the  4 LTs, that we are developing  how many are Canadians ?
are they trying to convert any to other positions on the O-Line ?
what is available via free agency that fit the teams present salary structure ?
we have 20 players presently on the 6 game, how many projected starters ?

so all points being equal and with my philosophical opinion our greatest need is on the O-Line,
but also due to the fact that the team has ratio issues that's an even tougher decision.

depopulationINC

Quote from: "bowl450"
Quote from: "depopulationINC"
Let's say 2 players are available:
Player 1 is a Canadian DLman who is a high impact player at DT and believed by almost anyone to have played against the 2 to be the better of he and Stefan Charles (same draft class) and has a couple years of contract.
Player 2 is a proven Import LT who has been been a beast but is also a pending free agent

Your team has seen its 2 best DTs retire or get hurt out of the gate, you have ratio issues, you have 4 LTs 24 or under you are looking at as development options, can look at bringing the LT in under Free Agency if you really want because he lives in your city, and your season is done.

Who do you pick?

the best defense is a great offence, because you can't score if you don't have the ball,
the 3 man D-Line that Jones is trying to implement, presently doesn't have the right personnel to make it work, as their is no pressure on the opposition QB,
my philosophy is protect your QB at all costs and put the fear of god in theirs, and this is what we have not bein doing lately.
to rectify the ratio issue what positions are we developing Canadians for ?
of the  4 LTs, that we are developing  how many are Canadians ?
are they trying to convert any to other positions on the O-Line ?
what is available via free agency that fit the teams present salary structure ?
we have 20 players presently on the 6 game, how many projected starters ?

so all points being equal and with my philosophical opinion our greatest need is on the O-Line,
but also due to the fact that the team has ratio issues that's an even tougher decision.

You can say a best defense is a good offense all you want...it sounds pretty...but you still need impact ratio players on both sides of the ball and the D is the only thing that has kept the team in games the past bit.  The BC game should have been like 20 more points against.  If you don't bring in a NI on D, then that is one more you have to play on O...perhaps Roosevelt rotates out more...or Edwards to accommodate that?  Kinda goes against the "best defense is a good offense" thing.  I don't like that idea.Muamba and Gaydosh are huge ratio additions (even though it likely means Jones is gone)

OL is key to success in the CFL...totally agree.  The team has some good talent there but there were too many new faces forced in too fast.  Coleman can NOT be the starting LT in 2017.  LaBatte has been pretty reliable, this season aside...I would think he is a relatively safe bet.  Clark is passable but still a liability.  If Best is back at a reduced rate...great....otherwise they have Guy (who could be a stud still and may have been one of the top 2 OL in the draft), JSJ (who is also still to banged up to play but might be back next week).  Vonk also has some potential.  Coleman actually looked really solid at RT...horrid at LT.  If the line is 75% healthy it is acceptable...always room to improve.

they have been using predominantly 4 down linemen for several weeks (probably 75-80% of snaps)....the lack of pressure goes hand in hand with needing a DT and needing ratio.  They lack a dominant DT and they need to rotate Canucks in there that are simply not good enough at DT.  Gaydosh is a check mark in both of those boxes....that's why they traded for him....and despite the struggles at LT w/o X it is a hell of a lot easier to find a new import OT than it is a solid NI DT....especially when X could be in green again in 2017.  Mrabure shows a lot of promise at DE...but lining him up at DT because of ratio issues scares nobody.

0 of the LTs are Canadain...how many Canadian LTs are there in the league?  One or maybe 2?  a NI LT would be nice...but not something you normally land.  It would sure be nice to get a NI RG though....that is brutal...but with the injuries it is a tall ask...NI OLmen are not just readily available....not compared to Import for sure.

of those on the 6 and single...I would say 6-8 are starters.  Labatte, Cox, Hecht, Edwards,    Eguavoen (though he and Knox are both solid), Gaydosh, Roosevelt
beyond that....Jackson, Steele and/or McKnight (or at least a factor), Greg Jones (likely gone), Fuller, potentially Guy, Williams (though I hope they upgrade there)...and of course potentially Best,,,all of those potentially factor in.  So saying 8 players of those injured are starters is probably safe...that is 1/3 of the starting team.

are they trying to convert any to other positions on the O-Line ?...who cares?  If someone fits the build...go for it.  but that is unlikely.

Free agency...yeah...they have room...but the picture is not known until Durant is resolved and Roosevelt....one way or the other.

Again...if i have to choose between a solid LT and an solid NI DT when you are out of the playoffs...I am picking the DT because it is way way more likely to pick up a LT in the off-season

JimmytheGreek

I understand your reasoning and on paper it is very solid. However here is where things get sticky. First of all there is no guarantees that either Best or Blue are going to be a factor. Blue more likely will be  then Best but still there is the issue of his concussion and one bad hit could be it. So if that happens then what? I have seen nothing from Coleman that says he should stay zero zip zilch he is a band aid on the right side at best and on the left side, he is a disaster. So take him now out of the picture and what do you have left? JSJ has not exactly been dominant like Heenan was and I think we messed up picking him to be honest. So now what are you left with? Clark at center is not bad but an upgrade would certainly be nice. His long snaps are quite often off the mark and without Darian abilities to compensate for them it would be a lot worse.  This is where it gets dicey about Fulton and his value. If as I said Blue and Best can't play the whole season and JSJ can not vastly improve and if they can not get something better then Coleman then this team is in deep do do once again next season. With Fulton  gone now no qb is going to survive with what we have now. At least with Fulton in Darian at least had the protection on that side some what . No X man and that is gone now too and what was an anemic offense before is non existent. We were not even close to the red zone last night and there is little to rationalize with the current mess on the line that would change next year. So unless your going to have 18 qb's (one at least for each game as they will get injured ) then what? Is the defense going to play two ways or are they going to do all the scoring while stopping the other team from doing so? Oops another sticky point, they can't stop Jack if the other team has anything on the ball. Oh sure against a team that is in as much as a shambles as ours they hold their own but put them against a real offense and their true lack of talent shines through. They can't stop the run against a good running back, they cant get to the qb against a good O line. Oh there are a few keepers as you mentioned like Cox, Gainey, Muamba should be good when he gets in shape and Jefferson on the line is by far the best they have. Still there are many many many weak links and maybe   Gaydosh will help and maybe not. Hamilton didn't see that much in him or why trade for as you say an easy to replace Import O linemen? Perhaps they gave up too quick on him or perhaps  they didn't like what they saw of him in practice who knows?

 What I do know whether it's Darian or any other qb they are in serious jeopardy of serious  injury with what we have now that is referred to as an O line but in fact is nothing more then tissue paper floating in the wind. Last night it was as  if it was a junior high school O line against an NFL D line. The results probably would have been no different then what we were witnessed to last night or the week before or what will probably happen next week. That simply is not acceptable.

Oh and one more point while the defense was better then the offense they got off the hook more then a few times by easily catch able balls for big big gains that were dropped by Lion receivers, otherwise the defense would have been burned pretty often too.

bowl450

Quote from: "depopulationINC"
You can say a best defense is a good offense all you want...it sounds pretty...but you still need impact ratio players on both sides of the ball and the D is the only thing that has kept the team in games the past bit.  The BC game should have been like 20 more points against.  If you don't bring in a NI on D, then that is one more you have to play on O...perhaps Roosevelt rotates out more...or Edwards to accommodate that?  Kinda goes against the "best defense is a good offense" thing.  I don't like that idea.Muamba and Gaydosh are huge ratio additions (even though it likely means Jones is gone)

OL is key to success in the CFL...totally agree.  The team has some good talent there but there were too many new faces forced in too fast.  Coleman can NOT be the starting LT in 2017.  LaBatte has been pretty reliable, this season aside...I would think he is a relatively safe bet.  Clark is passable but still a liability.  If Best is back at a reduced rate...great....otherwise they have Guy (who could be a stud still and may have been one of the top 2 OL in the draft), JSJ (who is also still to banged up to play but might be back next week).  Vonk also has some potential.  Coleman actually looked really solid at RT...horrid at LT.  If the line is 75% healthy it is acceptable...always room to improve.

they have been using predominantly 4 down linemen for several weeks (probably 75-80% of snaps)....the lack of pressure goes hand in hand with needing a DT and needing ratio.  They lack a dominant DT and they need to rotate Canucks in there that are simply not good enough at DT.  Gaydosh is a check mark in both of those boxes....that's why they traded for him....and despite the struggles at LT w/o X it is a hell of a lot easier to find a new import OT than it is a solid NI DT....especially when X could be in green again in 2017.  Mrabure shows a lot of promise at DE...but lining him up at DT because of ratio issues scares nobody.

0 of the LTs are Canadain...how many Canadian LTs are there in the league?  One or maybe 2?  a NI LT would be nice...but not something you normally land.  It would sure be nice to get a NI RG though....that is brutal...but with the injuries it is a tall ask...NI OLmen are not just readily available....not compared to Import for sure.

of those on the 6 and single...I would say 6-8 are starters.  Labatte, Cox, Hecht, Edwards,    Eguavoen (though he and Knox are both solid), Gaydosh, Roosevelt
beyond that....Jackson, Steele and/or McKnight (or at least a factor), Greg Jones (likely gone), Fuller, potentially Guy, Williams (though I hope they upgrade there)...and of course potentially Best,,,all of those potentially factor in.  So saying 8 players of those injured are starters is probably safe...that is 1/3 of the starting team.

are they trying to convert any to other positions on the O-Line ?...who cares?  If someone fits the build...go for it.  but that is unlikely.

Free agency...yeah...they have room...but the picture is not known until Durant is resolved and Roosevelt....one way or the other.

Again...if i have to choose between a solid LT and an solid NI DT when you are out of the playoffs...I am picking the DT because it is way way more likely to pick up a LT in the off-season
[/quote]

points well taken,
it is a sad state with the O-Line ( right or wrong as they are ultimately responsible for the protection of the QB ) when in a game you give up more sacks 7 than points scored 6 ,
Steele is missed fore his blocking abilities as McKnight and Morris are not at the same level,
so far this year our offense has given up 55 sacks 2nd most in the league to the defence getting 26 sacks least in the league.

JimmytheGreek

Oh and as far as using the 3 man D front I say they shelve it until they have the players that allow you to play it. We obviously don't have that now so why use it? Sure it works every now and then but far too often it does not. As it is now they can not defend the run against a good O line and they can't get to the qb using the 3 man. Go stock and use the 4 man and if we get the right players then you can use it. As it is right now it isn't working and that is very obvious to everyone.

StormRider1

Plain and simple, our Current O line sucks the big one! I can only hope that when he sent Fulton Packing, that it was with consent he was traded only as a rental player and that Jones wants him back... my gut says NOT!! Without a strong O line we will have yet another season as the last few. QB's can't work their magic laying on their backs or running for their lives!! This is right now, IMO the spot that is in need of the most attention come off season. If yah can't score points you don't win games... Period!!

Corky had better get DD signed asap as well as Rosey!! It was a tough season to watch and truth is, it really has not improved much since the start, in some cases... like our Offence it has gotten worse!! JMO

depopulationINC

Quote from: "StormRider1"
Plain and simple, our Current O line sucks the big one! I can only hope that when he sent Fulton Packing, that it was with consent he was traded only as a rental player and that Jones wants him back... my gut says NOT!! Without a strong O line we will have yet another season as the last few. QB's can't work their magic laying on their backs or running for their lives!! This is right now, IMO the spot that is in need of the most attention come off season. If yah can't score points you don't win games... Period!!

Corky had better get DD signed asap as well as Rosey!! It was a tough season to watch and truth is, it really has not improved much since the start, in some cases... like our Offence it has gotten worse!! JMO

Fulton was blindsided by it, but that does not mean the door is not potentially open for 2017.  He knew nothing until he was told.....very very rare a player knows in advance in a situation like this.  

I still agree with the move...NI DT is harder to fill than a good LT.  gave up a player no longer in the plans and a solid LT in a season already lost...but said LT is a FA.  Gained a couple picks and an interesting prospect big arse WR.

OL is so critical in the CFL.  I think that they have had some guys show well at RT....LT will be a question mark but they have time to figure that out.  LG is looking okay w/ Blue and Vonk.  RG...who knows with Best, but I think JSJ can step in there...he will stumble some but that is how you grow...he has the tools.  C...Clark is ok, though if he moved to RG it would not pain me.  Perhaps Guy will be good to go next season and will see some snapping action.  Never been sold as Clark at C.

heard some yammer that talks with Roosevelt are going well but waiting for other things to get nailed down first...you know who that means.  Makes sense that talks would be further along with him as he has been out.  I still question if he will try to get closer to home...but it sounds like talks are going better than I thought they would.


Quote from: "JimmytheGreek "
Oh and as far as using the 3 man D front I say they shelve it until they have the players that allow you to play it. We obviously don't have that now so why use it? Sure it works every now and then but far too often it does not. As it is now they can not defend the run against a good O line and they can't get to the qb using the 3 man. Go stock and use the 4 man and if we get the right players then you can use it. As it is right now it isn't working and that is very obvious to everyone.

Like I said...it pretty much has been shelved.  They are using it something like 20-25%.  Pretty hard to knock how the defense has been playing the past several weeks.  Look at all the guys in the secondary out against the Lions...the Rider O did nothing and left the Lions O on the field all night...yet one major scoring drives started on the 16 and the other was a respectable drive...tough to put a pile of fault on the D in this on...ST and O sucked...Run defense was sub-par...but they still only allowed 24 points...that is enough to keep you in most games.




Last I heard on DD was that there was some general agreement and that things sounded all but done during the road swing...apparently that was exaggerated...but that things are progressing.  I know the Riders are trying to work a contract that will give them room to look at Franklin as well and that is causing some issues.  I mean...they have X amount they want to spend on the full compliment of QBs...makes sense....but it sounds like they are asking for more of a discount via incentive...DD knows what he will get elsewhere and the difference IMO is too much.  Franklin would come at an elevated price compared to most backups....and despite what some are saying about his FA status for next season...I am going to stick with what I have been saying until something concrete says otherwise.  I really like Franklin as a prospect....I think he could be something special...but I hope it is not at the expense of DD because that is a huge gamble.  From what I gather they have the SMS to give DD what he wants by putting a good chunk into 2016...but this staff has been firm on keeping to their numbers because they know that bending on them too much effects future negotiations with other players...everyone sees that and wants it to

I will add this...to be clear, the staff 100% wants Durant around...they want him as their guy....but they will not negotiate to numbers that do not fit their system...won't happen.  100% assurance that if DD is back he could have gotten more in Toronto, Montreal, or perhaps Winnipeg.  I know both sides want to make it happen...so I hope it does

PrideLivesHere

From Depop - "I know both sides want to make it happen...so I hope it does"

Man I sure hope so as well. Was at the last game and when they introduced DD, I noticed he had a mike in his hand. I thought he was going to announce an extension. Nope, but it was a hope.

Go Riders.
1966, 1989, 2007 & 2013 Grey Cup Champions

Ignoring the Haters since May 11, 2006

depopulationINC

Quote from: "PrideLivesHere"
From Depop - "I know both sides want to make it happen...so I hope it does"

Man I sure hope so as well. Was at the last game and when they introduced DD, I noticed he had a mike in his hand. I thought he was going to announce an extension. Nope, but it was a hope.

Go Riders.

That would have been an unfortunate time to do it...the night was about the past, not the future.

I know with certainty that Jones wants DD as his guy for at least a couple more years...I know with certainty DD wants to return...I know with certainty that he wants to be the first 2 time Rider champion starting pivot.  That means a lot to him...he wants the new stadium...he wants to win a second GC...but he is only going to discount so much and he is going to push back on incentives that get him higher.  Other teams want him.  Other teams made permitable pitches to raise awareness of their desire for his services.  Others "may" have somehow gotten information in his hands...not directly,....not tampering...but maybe DD is at the table knowing exactly what free agency has to offer...."maybe" "maybe" :)

He ain't going to get that same money in Saskatchewan...it won't happen.  can a deal still be done...I think so.  It is a matter right now of how much less Durant will play for and how much Jones and Murphy will make it guaranteed money vs milestone money.  Brass wants a deal that will trim some money from DD if he goes down and line the pockets of another QB...DD has paid his dues though and I don't blame him for pushing back.  Sounds like it is a good contract talk...I think things will get done, but the team is not going to smash their SMS concept and Durant is going to have to play for less than top dollar to stay.

bowl450

Quote from: "depopulationINC"
Quote from: "PrideLivesHere"
From Depop - "I know both sides want to make it happen...so I hope it does"

Man I sure hope so as well. Was at the last game and when they introduced DD, I noticed he had a mike in his hand. I thought he was going to announce an extension. Nope, but it was a hope.

Go Riders.

That would have been an unfortunate time to do it...the night was about the past, not the future.

I know with certainty that Jones wants DD as his guy for at least a couple more years...I know with certainty DD wants to return...I know with certainty that he wants to be the first 2 time Rider champion starting pivot.  That means a lot to him...he wants the new stadium...he wants to win a second GC...but he is only going to discount so much and he is going to push back on incentives that get him higher.  Other teams want him.  Other teams made permitable pitches to raise awareness of their desire for his services.  Others "may" have somehow gotten information in his hands...not directly,....not tampering...but maybe DD is at the table knowing exactly what free agency has to offer...."maybe" "maybe" :)

He ain't going to get that same money in Saskatchewan...it won't happen.  can a deal still be done...I think so.  It is a matter right now of how much less Durant will play for and how much Jones and Murphy will make it guaranteed money vs milestone money.  Brass wants a deal that will trim some money from DD if he goes down and line the pockets of another QB...DD has paid his dues though and I don't blame him for pushing back.  Sounds like it is a good contract talk...I think things will get done, but the team is not going to smash their SMS concept and Durant is going to have to play for less than top dollar to stay.

If DD heads into free agency what are our chances of resigning him ?
Is DD willing to play for less that his market value ?
the way that he was being punished the last 2 games with out protection ?
we gave up 12 sacks in the last 2 games, not a healthy situation for any QB.
what will it take to have a bonafide QB to replace DD if he choses to walk ?
Franklin is not proven yet, and under contract for next year unless a trade, is he worth the risk to let DD walk ?
having another championship season is not guaranteed even with all your pieces in place .
yes there is the new stadium, who wouldn't want to play there ?
the fans will be there next year to open the stadium, but will they be back the following year if the team has another season like this one ?
can the organisation take another year like the last 2 ?
 


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