seymour

Quote from: "ronfromtigertown"
With hockey and so many other competing sports activities to pursue,

we need even more Canadians at both non-finesse and finesse positions
in the CFL serving as role models to draw kids towards minor football.

You don't need to be a non-import to be a CFL role model for Canadian youth. I would argue that the import stars in the CFL have inspired more Canadian youth than non-imports. Kids tend to emulate the stars in any sport and, in the CFL, the all-stars at the skill positions are almost exclusively imports.  

In my opinion, at some point, the CFL will need to decide whether it wants to continue as a pseudo development league or whether it wants to be taken seriously by the marketplace as a bona fide professional football league.  At present, the non-import rule essentially relegates the CFL to de facto semi-professional status (and more importantly is perceived as such by many in the marketplace) because teams are forced to use players who are professionals in name only and are on the rosters only because of their non-import status and not because they are worthy of earning roster positions through open competition with all other available talent. This impacts directly on the quality of the on-field product and effectively prevents the league from offering fans the the best possible CFL brand of three-down football entertainment. If you think the CFL provides good entertainment now, imagine what it could be like if all roster positions were open to the best athletes available.  
There is serious competition for sports fans' dollars now, especially in the Southern Ontario market where all kinds of options exist. For the CFL to remain viable and relevant going forward, I believe the quality of the on-field product is paramount. It makes no sense to me, especially in the context of the current marketplace, for the CFL, through its own rules, to constrain its teams from offering the best possible product and thereby best ensure their long-term viability.

Earl

And make the CFL into the AHL, a true farm league?  Look at the Bulldogs, thinking of leaving for Laval and don't draw that well at all.  And then the Canadian draft becomes non existent.  That to me is the destruction of the CFL.

The AHL is viewed as a minor league, they of themselves don't draft any players, and the CFL and all leagues that aren't of the Big 4 are viewed semi-professional, pseudo, minor etc.  At least let's keep Canadiana relevant in this league as either way it will be perceived by many as exactly what you are saying.  Doing what you say IMHO will not grow the league at all.

But different opinions exist I'll admit and maybe most die hard CFL fans don't care about a relevant Canadian aspect to the CFL or a relevant draft of our own.  I don't know.

Instead of a Canadian draft and all the talk about from Duane Forde and the discussions you see here and on CFL teams chat boards, they can talk about how many Air Miles points each team will earn flying more players up here for a look.  Wow, that would be exciting.   :roll:
Anywhere is the centre of the world - Black Elk

seymour

Quote from: "Earl"
And make the CFL into the AHL, a true farm league?

Why would the CFL be turned "into the AHL, a true farm league"? Nobody is advocating that CFL teams should have affiliations with teams in any other league (such as the AHL affiliations with NHL teams) or that the CFL should act as a farm league for any other football league.
Incidentally, for the record, the Bulldogs are not "thinking about leaving for Laval". Michael Andlauer has already stated publicly that he has no intention of moving the team from Hamilton.

Quote from: "Earl"
But different opinions exist I'll admit and maybe most die hard CFL fans don't care about a relevant Canadian aspect to the CFL ...

It's not the "die hard" CFL fans I'm concerned about. It's the new generations of fans who the CFL will need to attract in order to be relevant and viable in the years ahead. The nature of the sports entertainment market has changed over the decades IMO. The market is much more fragmented now and includes a multitude of people of varying national origin, race and ethic background. Increasingly, the birthplace of a player will become irrelevant to these fans as they seek the best possible on-field entertainment in return for their investment of money and time. What may have been important or relevant to CFL fans years ago in terms of the import/non-import ratio will have less and less importance to these new generations of fans as they seek the best outlet for their sports entertainment dollar.

Earl

I don't know seymour, I would think the NFL would be quite interested in running the CFL as a farm league if there wasn't the import rule and would probably provide some funding for this as an enticement for CFL teams owner.  

I think this discussion about the Canadian content rule for Canadian MLS teams is interesting and there is a sport where I assume most of the fans attending games are more diverse in their ethnic background.  Not trying to compare the two, two diffierent sports and leagues but still, interesting read:


But, as well-intentioned as I believe Lenarduzzi is, I can’t agree with his stance on the Canadian quota. And here’s why:

1. “Canadian players who actually could make our team weaker.” Anyone who followed Toronto FC’s first four seasons in Major League Soccer knows it wasn’t the Canadian players who were the issue with the team; it was the imports brought in from England, Scotland, Argentina, France. Name the biggest busts in TFC history, and none of them are Canadian players. There is actually a wide Canadian talent pool. Toronto FC tried to sign Canadian Mozzi Gyorio from NASL this season, but couldn’t make a deal with Tampa. FC Edmonton has several players who could at least walk into an MLS reserve team. The Canadian MLS clubs didn’t scout the Canadian university championships. Only FC Edmonton wants to bother with Canadian collegiate players. The truth is, a lot of domestic doors aren’t opened when Canadian players come knocking. And, I have a hard time believing, when I look at the amount of American footsoldiers on Canadian MLS clubs, that Canadians of similar skill sets aren’t available.

2. Why is it that Dutch coaches, like Toronto FC’s Aron Winter and FC Edmonton’s Harry Sinkgraven, are more prone to play Canadian players than we see in Montreal and Vancouver? Because the Dutch preach a system where local players have to be used as a resource — right from the get-go. There’s no point in waiting for things to get better. You can’t build a team on imports; instead, you bring in the right imports to augment a group of local players who have grown into a team together. Did Toronto FC improve when Ashtone Morgan and Matt Stinson got more playing time? Yes. No, you can’t say that Morgan and Stinson were reasons why TFC looked so much better in the final third of the season and qualified for the CONCACAF Champions League quarter-finals. But you CAN say that the club saw that these two young Canadian were NOT going to make the team worse, and that they deserved the chance to play. And, in fact, Morgan impressed enough to earn a national-team call-up.

3. As for the pro clubs developing talent, Lenarduzzi is right on. The academies can develop talent. But where does this leave soccer players who grow up in Saskatchewan, Manitoba or the Atlantic provinces? You see, getting to an academy requires major sacrifices. In most cases, a young player’s family has to pay to get their child to a trial. And that’s a massive barrier for many Canadians. So, the academies still tend to be open to local players. So, Vancouver, Edmonton, southern Ontario and the Montreal area are handled. The rest would be out in the cold. If Lenarduzzi supports the notion that the clubs will figure out development, then, logically he should support any move for Canadian expansion. Geography is a greater barrier for our national soccer development than any other factor. When we see the MLS teams sink money into scouts that scour all 10 provinces, then I could trust Lenarduzzi on this point.


http://the11.ca/2011/12/22/taking-on-le ... velopment/

I know what you're saying in that future generations won't care as much but should reducing or removing the number of Canadians mandated in the CFL lead to a deterioration in player development, and I trust we all want to see Canadians develop to their maximum potential in football, then that is not good for player development of the game IN CANADA.  If the CFL is nothing about player development then yes, abolish the import rule and run it strictly as an entertainment thing and let the chips fall where they may.   In terms of people spending their money, often people like to get together with their friends for a road trip and go to a game of one of the "major" leagues or NCAA.  That will still happen even if the CFL has no import rule, I don't think it will attract more people going to games here but that's just my opinion.

Earl

Oops, forget to include the 4th point from the writer from the article mentioned above:

4. Lenarduzzi’s plan also doesn’t take into account the human factor. If we were all Vulcans, able to pack our emotions away, then we could be patient and wait for a system to breed better players. But, what happens along the way? Coaches and GMs are under constant pressure, so they look past the Canadian players and try to bring in name imports to boost their teams. That’s human nature. And when that import runs put of steam, another is brought in. There’s always the temptation to go out into the import market, especially as we see the European economy go into the toilet. When teams and leagues in Europe begin to fail, more European players will be available and willing to work for less — which will smash headfirst into any kind of Canadian-player development plan. We know that in leagues where there is no salary cap or a soft cap, owners who are captains of industry turn into drunken sailors. With a low Canadian quota, you actually create an environment where there is no patience, that foreign prospects are just loaded and then reloaded onto rosters. Remember that coaches and GMs fight to keep their jobs on a daily basis, so there is always the emotional push-back to take the quick-fix over a long development strategy.

Love the line "long development strategy".  This to me is key and what I'd love to see is a strategy to decrease the number of imports in the future and keep the game even more entertaining as the quality of the Canadian player increases as a result of the strategy or long term vision and plan.  But as I say, to me the CFL is partly about helping to develop talent IN CANADA for Canadians.

seymour

Quote from: "Earl"
This to me is key and what I'd love to see is a strategy to decrease the number of imports in the future and keep the game even more entertaining as the quality of the Canadian player increases as a result of the strategy or long term vision and plan. But as I say, to me the CFL is partly about helping to develop talent IN CANADA.

When you come up with a strategy and long term vision whereby you decrease the number of imports while simultaneously improving the on-field  product and making the CFL more entertaining, let me know because the current system isn't working.  
The current import/non-import quota rule simply lowers the bar on overall team talent by forcing teams to employ twenty players, most of whom are not talented enough to get on the roster by any other means. Providing a "free pass" to sub-par players simply to meet an arbitrary non-import quota does nothing to improve team talent level, the quality of the on-field product or the entertainment factor. The way to develop talent at all levels is through open competition with all other available candidates. That's when players will strive to be the best they can be and the best athletes will emerge.  Canadian players who earn their way on to CFL rosters in that manner deserve our respect and admiration.

Earl

It isn't working for you and others, but works for me and others.  You call it a "free pass", I call it an opportunity that wouldn't exist without a system as it is.  Current Canadian players haven't earned their way onto a team?  Is that a joke?  They've strived to be the best they can be so they will get drafted and have a spot.  Without the current system, it is easy to just pluck players from the US, many of whom are from smaller colleges and arguably no better than our best, and don't even look at the Canadian players who just must be of lower talent because, well, they are Canadians as you seem to suggest and therefore aren't good enough.

We just come from different angles, that's all and constructs.  To each his own.  Remember, the CFL will always be minor league if it isn't the NFL and never watched or followed by those that only want to see the "majors".  So far nothing you've said will change those peoples opinions IMHO.  The only way for those people will be for the CFL teams to join the NFL and that is not going to happen.
____________________________

Canadian players who earn their way on to CFL rosters in that manner deserve our respect and admiration.

And the current ones don't deserve equal such respect and admiration?  Wow.  In your system, each team will have what many will call "token Canadians" to sell a few more tickets because the CFL will still be a "minor" league and I bet no more people will attend games than now, it'll still be a challenge for some markets to sell tickets.  If that's the kind of respect you are looking for, so be it.  In the current system the team that gets the best Canadians in the mix often are legitimate GC contenders.  I love seeing how teams draft and acquire players to get the right mix.  Rather than a few token boys for the turnstiles.

seymour

Quote from: "Earl"
It isn't working for you and others, but works for me and others. You call it a "free pass", I call it an opportunity that wouldn't exist without a system as it is. Current Canadian players haven't earned their way onto a team? Is that a joke? They've strived to be the best they can be so they will get drafted and have a spot.

When a player is given a roster spot not because he's the best player available but simply because he fills a non-import team quota, I call that a free pass. You're free to call it what you want, it doesn't change the facts.  

Quote from: "Earl"
Without the current system, it is easy to just pluck players from the US, many of whom are from smaller colleges and arguably no better than our best, and don't even look at the Canadian players who just must be of lower talent because, well, they are Canadians as you seem to suggest and therefore aren't good enough.

You're revealling the ever-present Canadian inferiority complex. There is simply no reason to believe that talented Canadian players will be shoved aside in favour of US players who are "arguably no better than our best". GMs and player personnel staff are paid to find the best available players... PERIOD. If you think they are going to pass over or ignore a Canadian player who is more talented than a given US player simply because he's Canadian, you are delusional. That boogie man doesn't exist Earl, except in your mind.

Quote from: "Earl"
We just come from different angles, that's all and constructs. To each his own. Remember, the CFL will always be minor league if it isn't the NFL and never watched or followed by those that only want to see the "majors". So far nothing you've said will change those peoples opinions IMHO. The only way for those people will be for the CFL teams to join the NFL and that is not going to happen.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but I'll take a stab at it. You seem to be fine with the CFL as a developmental/ pseudo professional league and I'm saying, at some point, the CFL will need to decide whether It's a developmental league or a bona fide professional league because it can't be both at the same time and continue to be viable and relevant going forward IMO. I want the see the league be the best it can be and offer the best on-field product because that's what I believe will be needed in this market. It has nothing whatsover to do with joining the NFL, being a farm league for the NFL or in any way seeing the CFL as "minor" or inferior compared to the NFL. Again, it is simply about the CFL striving to offer the best possible on-field product to best ensure it's future going forward. The market has changed greatly over the years and the CFL has not kept up IMO.    

Quote from: "Earl"
Wow. In your system, each team will have what many will call "token Canadians" ...

There would be no "token Canadians". Every player earns his way on to the roster through an open competition with the best available talent. The term token Canadians"  best describes the ones that are currently on CFL rosters simply to fill the non-import quota.

Earl

Whatever, glass half full, half empty, beauty is in the eye of the beholder as the saying goes.  :roll:  :roll:  :roll:

So are you able to pay money now and attend TigerCat games and enjoy the games if you have the means to?  Just curious, that's all, no judgement on my part.

stevehvh

As Earl says, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

For me, the CFL is an unique mixture of history, tradition, entertainment and quirkiness. It's a bit of Canadiana that I cherish. Memories of great players over the years play a big role in all of that for me. Some of my favourites are US players like Garney Henley.  But I have far more of them who are Canadians. People who grew up in Canada, went to school in Canada, played university ball for and against my own alma mater, aspired to play in the CFL and made it, dreamed of playing for the Grey Cup and did so. They share my memories in a way that most American kids-- who grew up dreaming of the NCAA and the NFL and view their time in Canada as a brief stopover in a foreign country on the way to where they really want to play back home-- never will, or can. I wouldn't expect them to.

Seymour and mikem may be correct in their view of it all (though I disagree with them), and maybe things will go the way they would like them to (though I don't think that would make the CFL any more "professional" than it is). But if things do turn out that way, I would expect our kids to become less interested in Canadian football over time (and not much time) when it becomes something very few of them can hope to pursue beyond school, and when none of them know-- or even know of-- other kids who played nearby and went on and made it to the CFL. And I would expect the unique aspects of the game to become less important and then erode and be forgotten, along with the rich tradition of the game that the American players who arrive each year have never heard of, don't care about and will have no one to learn about it from.

If things do turn out that way, I will regret it, and will lose interest and probably stop following it. Perhaps more new fans will join than old ones who lose interest. If so, that's OK, it will just mean I'll have to find another pastime that I can relate to better.
"The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously."
- Hubert H. Humphrey

robsawatsky

Quote from: "seymour"
When a player is given a roster spot not because he's the best player available but simply because he fills a non-import team quota, I call that a free pass. You're free to call it what you want, it doesn't change the facts.  
...
You're revealling the ever-present Canadian inferiority complex. There is simply no reason to believe that talented Canadian players will be shoved aside in favour of US players who are "arguably no better than our best". GMs and player personnel staff are paid to find the best available players... PERIOD. If you think they are going to pass over or ignore a Canadian player who is more talented than a given US player simply because he's Canadian, you are delusional. That boogie man doesn't exist Earl, except in your mind.
...
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but I'll take a stab at it. You seem to be fine with the CFL as a developmental/ pseudo professional league and I'm saying, at some point, the CFL will need to decide whether It's a developmental league or a bona fide professional league because it can't be both at the same time and continue to be viable and relevant going forward IMO. I want the see the league be the best it can be and offer the best on-field product because that's what I believe will be needed in this market. It has nothing whatsover to do with joining the NFL, being a farm league for the NFL or in any way seeing the CFL as "minor" or inferior compared to the NFL. Again, it is simply about the CFL striving to offer the best possible on-field product to best ensure it's future going forward. The market has changed greatly over the years and the CFL has not kept up IMO.    
...
There would be no "token Canadians". Every player earns his way on to the roster through an open competition with the best available talent. The term token Canadians"  best describes the ones that are currently on CFL rosters simply to fill the non-import quota.

Your view omits to consider the fact that many CFL (non-import) greats took a couple of years of grooming and patience to develop.  Without the ratio rules, that opportunity simply wouldn't exist.  And, that is the big issue - opportunity - not skill.

Because of the above, potential Canadian players would be shoved aside.  Not only because they have a higher probability of requiring additional development time but because the truly talented ones won't play for cheap like the canon-fodder imports.  Even where equal talent is true, imports are simply easier to find and will work cheaper than a comparable Canadian.  The latter is a BIG reason the players' union is generally in favour of maintaining the ratio.

There are plenty of marginal players that a last a season or two on special-teams or never make it through training camp regardless of import/non-import status.  They are marginal or "token" players either way.  There is still the fact of development, where those "token" Canadians have the opportunity to move from special-teams and 3rd string backup to starter IF given the chance.

IMHO, what keeps the CFL from being anything more than a complete rotating door for imports aspiring for the NFL is the ratio rules.  Taking that away would actually cement the view of some that the CFL is an inferior, less than top-level PRO league, and is merely another NFL developmental league.

Catattack1

...said it before & I'll say it again.  
I want the best talent in this league for what can be provided. Down with the import rule. :thdn:
The game of the CFL is based on the field size, playercount and rules & reg of the game. You get rid of the import rule you get better caliber players (AKA: best qualified man for the job) which will mean a better team, game and league....noting else other than current non mports are effected....and what does that matter as the game gets better which is what we all want. IMO
 :cowboy:
Rich
....The Original BoxIGUY (No longer a Season Ticket Holder, since 2017)  \":cowboy:\"
One day I expect to see all the opinionated armchair quarterbacks in the TiCat forum be judged as they have judged others. It\'s one thing to have an opinion for discussion purposes. It\'s another to be a complete fool.

stevehvh

Quote from: "Catattack1"
....ok, so I guess we've beaten this topic to death.  Wait......  :roll:


This one too.

seymour

Quote from: "robsawatsky"
Your view omits to consider the fact that many CFL (non-import) greats took a couple of years of grooming and patience to develop. Without the ratio rules, that opportunity simply wouldn't exist. And, that is the big issue - opportunity - not skill.

What about the hundreds of potentially great import players over the years who could have added excitement and skill to the league but never got the opportunity because of the non-import quota. In my view, CFL fans deserve to be entertained by the best players available. Whether they are imports or non-imports should not matter, as long as they are the best available.

Earl

Whether they are imports or non-imports should not matter, as long as they are the best available.

Agree it shouldn't matter unless there is statement of vision/mission from the CFL as to why the import rule exists.  For the same reason all men should be able to have multiple wives, it's all "natural" so to speak as in nature.  But humans live in a codified world where things do matter for various reasons, we have determined that in our particular society, you can only have one wife, might not be the best one for you, but those are citizen driven rules that are felt to make our society more liveable or humane.  

Maybe the NFL should go to having 13 men on the field, then you would get extra "best available" men playing rather than sitting on the bench.  But the rule is 12 men on the field.  Or why are some players that are better than others not able to play for a while just because they smoked some pot ie. Ricky Williams.  The "best available" wasn't playing for a time.  But it shouldn't matter that he smoked pot, some would say, if he was the best he should have been allowed to play.  

We have rules in society, some agree with the rules, others don't.  If someone doesn't like the rules and it really bothers them a lot, then don't watch something or follow it I say.  I like the import rule for player development in Canada for football, a sport which isn't our number one sport.  Others like you obviously see no justification or mission in something like developing Canadian content in this manner, it makes no sense to you.  Fair enough.

Again seymour I ask, do you follow the Cats or CFL even though you think the import rule should be abolished?  Just curious.  I do follow hockey somewhat even though I think fighting should be an immediate ejection from the game.  And I don't think I'm a hypocrite for this.  Just like I do go to Church occasionally even though I don't agree with all the tenants of the Church.  The rules of hockey, the fighting thingy, doesn't bother me enough for me not to follow it and same with the Church, doesn't bother me enough again in this case.  

It is a great discussion I will admit and one we always have on the CFL forum site. Other leagues around the world such as Japanese baseball and European hockey and basketball leagues and i'm sure some soccer leagues have similar rules for similar reasons like the CFL and I'm sure this is debated by their fans as well.  The OHL/CHL struggles with the import rule as well, I think they can only have 1 or 2 imports on each team, forget the specifics.  It is a hot topic for sure.
 


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