Killer91

Hopefully June Jones was watching - didn't see any shotgun snaps when teams had the ball near the goal line.  This would be my only criticism of Jones - hopefully that gets corrected.  Teams really should specialize better in this area.  I think someone mentioned Julien Radlan and Dan Lefevoure - those guys never got stopped short in my memory.  This comes up so often in the CFL - 3rd and short that I would make it a huge criteria in scouting my third string QB, one who is good at short yardage.  We suck at this.

Beam reach

There was one shotgun 3rd down gamble by the Blues in the first quarter, they were stopped and you're correct I thought of our shot gun 3rd and goal failure.

150GAGE

Me thinks if we would have made those 2nd and short and 3rd short conversions when we were in shotgun we probably be in the playoffs!  >:(

-Hammer-

Me thinks if we would have made those 2nd and short and 3rd short conversions when we were in shotgun we probably be in the playoffs!  >:(
Possibly, I'd have to go back and check, but I do know we left a combined 22-27 points off the scoreboard this season between Kent and Jones (I believe Jones was only guilty of it once on a TD) by either passing or trying to run out of shotgun on the one yard line. Three touchdowns and 2 converts (where the ball was placed on the 1 due to a penalty). I'm pretty sure one of those might have cost us a game vs the Esks, but with how much we were losing by this season, most would not have made the difference.

I'm pretty sure Jones got stuffed once on 1st and goal as well running out of shotgun, but then managed to score the next play.

Anyways, in the NFL, QB sneaks have an over 80% conversion rate on 4th and 1 vs around a 63% for any other play, and that's in a league where they lineup on the ball.

http://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

Not running a sneak on the 1 yard line of the endzone (unless a field goal will win you the game) in the CFL is tantamount to saying that you don't understand the rules of the game up here or that you have zero faith in your QB's mobility, ability to take a fast snap or toughness.

A QB sneak for short yardage might be the oldest trick in the book, but it still works most of the time, which is why it's still in the book.

150GAGE

Or the boot leg works well when defence is keying on in the middle.

kfan

Or QB under centre and a direct snap to the running back who picks a  hole.  Lots depends on ends/slot backs picking off rush/contain ends
Be who you are
Say what you feel
Those that matter don\'t mind
Those that mind don\'t matter

-Hammer-

Or QB under centre and a direct snap to the running back who picks a  hole.  Lots depends on ends/slot backs picking off rush/contain ends
I'm hoping this is sarcasm, because this is exactly what shouldn't do, and is the kind of over thinking, failed trickery that leads to lost points.

First, you don't have a real way of disguising the RB. The defense is still going to as "Why is that running back in the backfield on a jumbo team play?". They are still going to flood the gaps and keep an eye on him (as they are running Goal Line Defense), leading the Ends, Safety and DB to key on him. The only thing you've changed with a direct snap is the timing, which given they are flooding the gaps, doesn't really have a lot of meaning or purpose.

Second, you are needlessly asking for a bobbled snap and a tackle in the backfield, and since the QB is under centre, your centre has to aim around or under him and risks hitting the legs of his QB leading to disaster. Add to that, one of the inherent risks of Shotgun is missed snaps or off the money snaps that delays the QB on his reads. You typically get away with during a pass because Shotgun because the QB is still in position settled into the pocket to pass. During a run (direct snap or otherwise) in Shotgun, if you are delayed and you have to stop to retrieve the ball on a bobble, you have given defenses more time to breach the line and read the play and given they are bringing the house on a goal line play, a backfield tackle becomes far more likely.

Third, you are right, ends and slots will be trying to typically contain, or open a gap, but the bigger issue is that you have D.Linemen flooding all the gaps on a goal line play. It's very common one of them will break into the line when your running back is heading to his hole and disrupting the play. That's why other running plays have lower conversion rates when only 1 yard is required. You're giving defenders time to defend and creating other points of potential failure vs the sneak which you are basically forcing the guys lined up in the middle of the line to both have perfect timing and out muscle your guards (who are typically, the two biggest guys on the field). 

You only need one yard, the worse case scenario for a QB sneak on the 1 is a stop on the 1 (barring a bad snap or a fumble which can happen literally on any play, but is increased during direct snaps). You generally don't even need to worry about a QB injury because your backup typically runs the sneak. The worst case scenario for any other run is a tackle in the backfield. I'm not saying running the sneak on every one yard play, but on the goal line, unless you have proven issues with your jumbo team, or are playing a team infamous for one yard stands, just run the sneak.

kfan

Hammer:
Points taken, but don't they usually line the running back in his usual place?  Then start him towards the line just before the snap so that he hits a gap as the snap happens.

TheBreeze

Me thinks if we would have made those 2nd and short and 3rd short conversions when we were in shotgun we probably be in the playoffs!  >:(
Possibly, I'd have to go back and check, but I do know we left a combined 22-27 points off the scoreboard this season between Kent and Jones (I believe Jones was only guilty of it once on a TD) by either passing or trying to run out of shotgun on the one yard line. Three touchdowns and 2 converts (where the ball was placed on the 1 due to a penalty). I'm pretty sure one of those might have cost us a game vs the Esks, but with how much we were losing by this season, most would not have made the difference.

I'm pretty sure Jones got stuffed once on 1st and goal as well running out of shotgun, but then managed to score the next play.

Anyways, in the NFL, QB sneaks have an over 80% conversion rate on 4th and 1 vs around a 63% for any other play, and that's in a league where they lineup on the ball.

http://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

Not running a sneak on the 1 yard line of the endzone (unless a field goal will win you the game) in the CFL is tantamount to saying that you don't understand the rules of the game up here or that you have zero faith in your QB's mobility, ability to take a fast snap or toughness.

A QB sneak for short yardage might be the oldest trick in the book, but it still works most of the time, which is why it's still in the book.
Against SSK, last play of the game - missed a chance to tie the score (if we made the 2 pt convert), and go to OT

Against the blew team, shotgun from the one on first down, followed by a penalty, ended up with a field goal. Left 4 points on the table in a game that ended up tied.

Against CGY, left 4 points on the table in a game that was lost by two

All during June Jones tenure.

schmenger

Crash

Austin 0-8
Can't wait until we lose a grey cup going shotgun from the 1... I'm gonna come on here and read "Austin 0-8" and instantly feel better.

-Hammer-

Hammer:
Points taken, but don't they usually line the running back in his usual place?  Then start him towards the line just before the snap so that he hits a gap as the snap happens.
Well he won't be hitting the gap, unless the ball somehow passes through your linemen. Your center is still going to have to snap the ball diagonally backwards, but I get what you are saying. He's got the head of steam and he's en route to the gap. 

It can be done that way, but it's the same effect as receivers turning before they've caught the ball. You can make the catch doing it, and in a perfect world yes you can get away with it to a net benefit but the risk of doing it often outweighs the reward.


Keep in mind, the snap happens and then the running back then needs to catch the snap with his hands then turn and secure the ball. Snaps, like passes aren't always picture perfect. That means he either needs to look at the snap to make sure he catches it and then turn as he secures the ball, and take an eye off where is he running too or catch it blindly. Either case greatly increases your chance of a bobble or a drop, given that he is already heading to the line where ball disruption is most likely to occur. It's exactly where you don't want to be in transition securing the ball. Unlike in a pass though, a drop here is a fumble, which spells disaster, all to try to fool a defense that's lining up in full out run defense formation to begin with.

It's why a lot of direct snaps are to stationary running backs or receivers in motion, who generally have better hands and are running horizontally and should have a better chance to secure the ball, and are typically used as trick plays because they aren't consistent earners. 

Once again, we're engaging in a lot of tomfoolery here for one yard. The sneak has a better then 80% conversion rate, despite the fact that everyone knows it's coming. That's better then most QB's completion rates who have the benefit of hundreds of different formations, routes and play options.
 


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