Crash

I'm not good enough at portraying my sarcasm apparently.

Guess I asked for those responses.

Those that know me around here know that post was pretty much the opposite of how I feel about 2013.

-Hammer-

Because it was Burris not Collaros. Another mistake Austin made. He was too stubborn to stick with Burris and he went on to make us look stupid by winning a Grey Cup with Ottawa.

We committed too much money to Collaros and nothing (absolutely nothing) positive happened after that grey cup game.

That season set us in a downward spiral that only June Jones and Jeremiah Masoli can recover us from. But not until Austin is fired.
Burris was almost 40, did not have a very impressive showing in the MOST important game of the season in 2013.

Tiger cats would need to move on to a younger quarterback. Collaros WAS most impressive in his games with Toronto that same year. And was a free agent. There were not many quarterbacks available at the time.

Kent Austin chose to sign Collaros and release Burris.

Burris followed that with a stay in Ottawa that led him to be benched and he even lashed out on national television against all who had justifiably criticized his play.

Yes, Ottawa won a Grey cup. Not sure if it was a case of the RB's playing that well or Calgary underestimating the situation.

Interesting that when those who disagree with Kent Austin's decisions call him "Stubborn".

You forget how bad Burris made us look in the 2013 Grey Cup.

You also forget about how well Collaros and the team performed in the 2014 Grey cup, as they came within ONE PLAY of winning it.

Then followed that up with an amazing showing in the first half of the following season, until his injury.

Did you forget...or is this a case of selective memory.
Burris is another discussion, that really doesn't factor into Kent that much, apart from the fact that Kent inherited a Hall of Fame QB in 2013 (which I'm sorry, but having a Hall of Fame QB makes your job as a coach a lot easier) and released him the next season for justifiable reasons. 

Hank was a great QB, but he was nearly a 40 year old QB without a lot of gas left in the tank, especially given that he retired 3 seasons later. You needed to start developing a new QB at some point, and a QB that performed as well as Zach doesn't come around every day.

Releasing Hank for Zach was not a bad move at the time. There is no damnation of Austin based on that. What is damning of Austin is what we ended up paying Zach. Initially when we got him from Toronto, he was making a reasonable salary for a top prospect with game day experience. Then he took us to the Grey Cup, and got an MCL tear and paid him more then proven hall of fame QBs which was a mistake. It's not like no one saw this could happen.

http://3downnation.com/2016/06/21/new-zach-collaros-deal-risks-ticats/

Make no mistake, I truly believe Zach was, is and will be a great QB if he says healthy and can get a new lease on the field with another team. However, to pay him a hall of fame QB salary without a Grey Cup ring, after coming off a major injury simply put was a mistake, and to not give that asset the tools to succeed (IE: Vet receivers, a good offensive tackles, a mixed rushing attack to compensate for missing personnel) magnified that mistake substantially.

Crash

Contracts in the CFL are not guaranteed.

I have no problem with the contract because if Zach plays to potential he's worth the contract and more (considering the cap moderately increases from time to time).

If he doesn't play well you cut him. Which is where we are now. The problem in all honesty is the fans that want to have their cake and eat it too. Some wanted Zach benched as a result of the first 8 games of the season... But still feel entitled to keep him around because well "we just don't know." 

We all know what Zach can do - he has hall of fame potential and ability. With coach Jones back there's no room for Zach anyways. Time to let him move on. Hopefully he goes to Toronto and lights it up. Hopefully coach Jones and Masoli light it up. The league is more fun when both us and Toronto are good.

What I won't accept is those that say "wish he played this well for us" if he lights it up. I'll call out each and every one of those posts if/when it happens. Anyone that has watched football for a period of time knows Zach isn't done. 

-Hammer-


Contracts in the CFL are not guaranteed.

I have no problem with the contract because if Zach plays to potential he's worth the contract and more (considering the cap moderately increases from time to time).

If he doesn't play well you cut him. Which is where we are now. The problem in all honesty is the fans that want to have their cake and eat it too. Some wanted Zach benched as a result of the first 8 games of the season... But still feel entitled to keep him around because well "we just don't know."

We all know what Zach can do - he has hall of fame potential and ability. With coach Jones back there's no room for Zach anyways. Time to let him move on. Hopefully he goes to Toronto and lights it up. Hopefully coach Jones and Masoli light it up. The league is more fun when both us and Toronto are good.

What I won't accept is those that say "wish he played this well for us" if he lights it up. I'll call out each and every one of those posts if/when it happens. Anyone that has watched football for a period of time knows Zach isn't done.
The problem there is that it's not as simple as "Well, we can always cut him" for several reasons. 

First off, you can't exactly make good signings during free agency with money you are expecting to be tied up with other players. Taking garden sheers to your roster at the end of the season going into the playoffs is a recipe for disaster, and generally you can only trade guys who you would want to keep. Overpaying a player hinders your ability to attract the retain other players, regardless of if he later gets cut. The fact we tied up so much in Zach was a foreseeable mistake, and even more so when we didn't give him the same top receivers he used to have.

Second, a player of Zach's caliber will get snatched up the second he hits the open market for less money then he is making now. You can't just cut him because you are giving other teams a key component to turning a franchise around, pretty much for free. There is little question that if a release happens, another team will pick him up for a price closer to his actual worth. You need to get something back out of that asset, which leads us to the third issue.

Third, by negotiating that high a salary, you've also made it very difficult to trade him. A team like Toronto who has a good but aging Quarterback can't afford to pay two hall of fame QB salaries. That pretty much limits your trade options to the most desperate of teams (IE: Montreal).

-Hammer-

Because it was Burris not Collaros. Another mistake Austin made. He was too stubborn to stick with Burris and he went on to make us look stupid by winning a Grey Cup with Ottawa.

We committed too much money to Collaros and nothing (absolutely nothing) positive happened after that grey cup game.

That season set us in a downward spiral that only June Jones and Jeremiah Masoli can recover us from. But not until Austin is fired.
A couple points on agreeing with this statement...
Nobody would have beat Saskatchewan in that Grey Cup in 2013.
We had a chance to learn from that experience and go back and win the next year and maybe more with that team nucleus.  In 2014 Grey Cup we couldn't get the job done on offence to win the big one and then it has been trending down ever since.  Also going 6-4 in the last 10 games does not make for a successful season, we were still 6 - 12 this year, don't forget that.  Everyone seems to be happy with our finish and letting this management team off the hook for start of the season.  I paid to watch at least 10 exhibition games this year.  The saving grace for my entertainment dollar was June Jones's attitude turn around and the increased excitement of this offence towards the end of the year.

Wholly agree with this. Lets also forget of those last 10 games, two of those wins were vs Montreal who are in a state of collapse, the other three were against the next three worst teams in the league and two of them were immediately avenged upon us and the last was a 1 point squeaker against BC. The only win of substance was against Winnipeg.

You've taken the patient from critical condition to (hopefully) stable, he's still in the hospital though. We've gone from terrible to adequate and it's earned rope for Jones, not vindication of management.\

SteelCitySteve

If we fire Austin and the rest of management...who do we replace them with? Are there any complete management staff's with CFL experience out there looking for a job?

Geez, I remember not long ago going through the experiments of Greg Marshall, George Cortez, Marcel Beuilleufe (sp?), heck Timmy Chang, Casey Printers, Jason Mass, Quinton Porter etc. I mean, it only took 13 odd years for us to replace the last competent Coach / GM and QB we had and finally return the team to relevance.

Ya, lets downplay the accomplishments of Austin as simply luck, lets spin the numbers this way and that so that we can decide the team really wasn't that good the last few years.

I'm sure we can replace the entire management staff and the star QB instantly! It's so easy, right?

Maybe we are better off recognizing that we have some decent football minds at the helm. Yes, there have been some bad decisions, but to think Austin can't learn from that and get better is foolish. Wally Buono had good years and losing years, the ship can turn around.

jonny24eh

What I won't accept is those that say "wish he played this well for us" if he lights it up. I'll call out each and every one of those posts if/when it happens. Anyone that has watched football for a period of time knows Zach isn't done.
This is exactly what I think will happen.  Zach will be great wherever he is given his next chance.  But the way things have gone here mean it will probably be hardest for him to do that in Hamilton. A fresh start will do him wonders. If he somehow ends up here as the clear starter (about 5% chance that happens now) that might also give the boost he needs. 

I still think he deserves a shot here. 
The poster formerly known as jonny24.

Eat\'em raw!

safetyblitz

If we fire Austin and the rest of management...who do we replace them with? Are there any complete management staff's with CFL experience out there looking for a job?
The team has a General Manager: Eric Tillman. Regardless of any concerns people may have about his character, I haven't heard anyone calling for him to be fired.

The team has a head coach: June Jones.

Why does the team need anyone telling Eric Tillman how to perform the GM duties?

And note the bit I've hilighted below from this August 3downnation story:
http://3downnation.com/2017/08/02/june-jones-help-ticats-not-take-austins-job/

Quote
Discussions with general manager Eric Tillman – who has a long-standing relationship with Jones – in the wake of the team’s 60-1 loss to the Calgary Stampeders last Saturday led Austin to bring the idea of adding Jones to team owner Bob Young and CEO Scott Mitchell.
And while folks are aware of Tillman and Austin's existing relationship, the article below has a few words about the existing Tillman/Jones relationship:
http://www.pamplinmedia.com/pt/12-sports/373507-257732-jones-helps-tiger-cats-claw-their-way-up

Quote
"Eric asked me about a quarterback I'd had at SMU," Jones says. "I gave him my evaluation. We got to talking about stuff, and he asked if I'd be interested in coming to Hamilton and helping them. I said, 'Maybe.'"
Tillman called back 10 days later. They agreed to meet at Portland International Airport. Jones signed on to join the Hamilton staff as an assistant to Austin. Three weeks later, Tillman fired Austin and hired Jones as interim head coach. Did Jones expect that to happen when he was hired as an assistant?
"Absolutely not," he says. "It was the furthest thing from my mind. I was in shock, honestly, when the change was made. I came on to work with the receivers and quarterbacks and put my touch on what they were doing.

DisplacedCatsFan


Quote
"Eric asked me about a quarterback I'd had at SMU," Jones says. "I gave him my evaluation. We got to talking about stuff, and he asked if I'd be interested in coming to Hamilton and helping them. I said, 'Maybe.'"
Tillman called back 10 days later. They agreed to meet at Portland International Airport. Jones signed on to join the Hamilton staff as an assistant to Austin. Three weeks later, Tillman fired Austin and hired Jones as interim head coach. Did Jones expect that to happen when he was hired as an assistant?
"Absolutely not," he says. "It was the furthest thing from my mind. I was in shock, honestly, when the change was made. I came on to work with the receivers and quarterbacks and put my touch on what they were doing.
How can you take an article seriously with a mistake as blatant as this?
Formerly sigpig

Velox Versutus Vigilans

R.I.P. Cpl Nathan Cirillo Albainn Gu Brath

150GAGE

Because Austin is so stubborn, he would rather go 0-18 rather than turn the reins to someone else.  Lol!

Crash

Everybody in our organization was on board with the hire. We'd called the commissioner (Randy Ambrosie) four or five days prior and said if there was any objection to let us know. He never called us back."
But once the hire became public, Ambrosie stepped in and blocked it.

Interesting.

safetyblitz


Quote
"Eric asked me about a quarterback I'd had at SMU," Jones says. "I gave him my evaluation. We got to talking about stuff, and he asked if I'd be interested in coming to Hamilton and helping them. I said, 'Maybe.'"
Tillman called back 10 days later. They agreed to meet at Portland International Airport. Jones signed on to join the Hamilton staff as an assistant to Austin. Three weeks later, Tillman fired Austin and hired Jones as interim head coach. Did Jones expect that to happen when he was hired as an assistant?
"Absolutely not," he says. "It was the furthest thing from my mind. I was in shock, honestly, when the change was made. I came on to work with the receivers and quarterbacks and put my touch on what they were doing.
How can you take an article seriously with a mistake as blatant as this?
You think just because the reporter made the mistake of thinking that the person who holds the GM title hires and fires coaches (or maybe Jones had characterized it that way to the reporter), everything else in the story goes out the window?

The point is that the direct Jones quotes make it clear that Tillman was the point man for bringing Jones into the organization, and that their personal relationship was a catalyst for making it happen.

-Hammer-

If we fire Austin and the rest of management...who do we replace them with? Are there any complete management staff's with CFL experience out there looking for a job?

Geez, I remember not long ago going through the experiments of Greg Marshall, George Cortez, Marcel Beuilleufe (sp?), heck Timmy Chang, Casey Printers, Jason Mass, Quinton Porter etc. I mean, it only took 13 odd years for us to replace the last competent Coach / GM and QB we had and finally return the team to relevance.

Ya, lets downplay the accomplishments of Austin as simply luck, lets spin the numbers this way and that so that we can decide the team really wasn't that good the last few years.

I'm sure we can replace the entire management staff and the star QB instantly! It's so easy, right?

Maybe we are better off recognizing that we have some decent football minds at the helm. Yes, there have been some bad decisions, but to think Austin can't learn from that and get better is foolish. Wally Buono had good years and losing years, the ship can turn around.
Other teams have without issue, why wouldn't the Ti-Cats be able to? Look how quick the Argos snagged Trestman and Popp, or Sask and Winnipeg did when they cleaned house after Mack and Taman (the former with good cause, the later because he stopped producing). Look how quick they turned things around.

As far a who? Well Ed Hervey was but he's already been snagged by BC. Marcel wasn't a bad coach, he did get us to the playoffs and did far better then Cortez did with what he had. 

Brendan Taman who got Sask a Grey Cup in 2013 is available, but he panned out pretty quick, same with Jim Barker but are also solid choices. Also poaching other staff with the promise of a promotion from other teams is not out of question either. I believe the Esks have two Football Ops coordinators available and they haven't had personnel issues for some time. Michael Petrie who has had 10 seasons of relative success with the Stamps as an Assistant GM/Football Ops coordinator seems to make sense too.

-Hammer-


Quote
"Eric asked me about a quarterback I'd had at SMU," Jones says. "I gave him my evaluation. We got to talking about stuff, and he asked if I'd be interested in coming to Hamilton and helping them. I said, 'Maybe.'"
Tillman called back 10 days later. They agreed to meet at Portland International Airport. Jones signed on to join the Hamilton staff as an assistant to Austin. Three weeks later, Tillman fired Austin and hired Jones as interim head coach. Did Jones expect that to happen when he was hired as an assistant?
"Absolutely not," he says. "It was the furthest thing from my mind. I was in shock, honestly, when the change was made. I came on to work with the receivers and quarterbacks and put my touch on what they were doing.
How can you take an article seriously with a mistake as blatant as this?
You think just because the reporter made the mistake of thinking that the person who holds the GM title hires and fires coaches (or maybe Jones had characterized it that way to the reporter), everything else in the story goes out the window?

The point is that the direct Jones quotes make it clear that Tillman was the point man for bringing Jones into the organization, and that their personal relationship was a catalyst for making it happen.
I think the bigger point is it's yet another side of bad management that we are getting this after the fact finger pointing from both media sources and the staff themselves.

Everyone is trying to take credit for the good, everyone trying to pawn off the bad either onto players, or people heading out the door, or just trying to muddy the waters.

Mitchell saying everyone in the Cats signed off on hiring Briles and Randy talking us out of it, now it's Randy okayed it.

Kent pointing at Zach for his mistakes both with coaching and past first play calling while missing personnel.

Austin saying he stepped down of his own accord, and now it's Tillman, who is Austin's subordinate is firing Austin, but not firing him from being his boss.

Before that it was Austin who hired Jones to be his replacement, now it's Tillman who hired him and Jones didn't know he'd be taking over, but Mitchell negotiated his contract because it would have left Kent in an awkward spot, so why couldn't Tillman handle both parts of the negotiation?

At what point do you say "Screw it, you all shoulder some blame. None of you have produced a Grey Cup, other teams have turfed their management for far less and it paid dividends either immediately or a mere few seasons later. Why the heck are you still here?"

Crash

If we fire Austin and the rest of management...who do we replace them with? Are there any complete management staff's with CFL experience out there looking for a job?

Geez, I remember not long ago going through the experiments of Greg Marshall, George Cortez, Marcel Beuilleufe (sp?), heck Timmy Chang, Casey Printers, Jason Mass, Quinton Porter etc. I mean, it only took 13 odd years for us to replace the last competent Coach / GM and QB we had and finally return the team to relevance.

Ya, lets downplay the accomplishments of Austin as simply luck, lets spin the numbers this way and that so that we can decide the team really wasn't that good the last few years.

I'm sure we can replace the entire management staff and the star QB instantly! It's so easy, right?

Maybe we are better off recognizing that we have some decent football minds at the helm. Yes, there have been some bad decisions, but to think Austin can't learn from that and get better is foolish. Wally Buono had good years and losing years, the ship can turn around.
Other teams have without issue, why wouldn't the Ti-Cats be able to? Look how quick the Argos snagged Trestman and Popp, or Sask and Winnipeg did when they cleaned house after Mack and Taman (the former with good cause, the later because he stopped producing). Look how quick they turned things around.

As far a who? Well Ed Hervey was but he's already been snagged by BC. Marcel wasn't a bad coach, he did get us to the playoffs and did far better then Cortez did with what he had.

Brendan Taman who got Sask a Grey Cup in 2013 is available, but he panned out pretty quick, same with Jim Barker but are also solid choices. Also poaching other staff with the promise of a promotion from other teams is not out of question either. I believe the Esks have two Football Ops coordinators available and they haven't had personnel issues for some time. Michael Petrie who has had 10 seasons of relative success with the Stamps as an Assistant GM/Football Ops coordinator seems to make sense too.
Marcel was a terrible game management coach. Not in the same league as Austin and even though Jones drives me nuts with his shotgun calls.... Marcel was one of the worst game/clock/timeout management coaches I have ever seen - aside from Kollege Koach Greg Marshall.
 


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