Mark

Canadian mint had a $3 (!) bee coin a few years ago.


Mark

Canadian mint had a $3 (!) bee coin a few years ago.

The above post has no business in this tread. It should go in the off-topic section.

Palmer

I admire the coaching philosophy that has several package plays for the the starter and the backup. Having a quarterback hold a clipboard is stupid. Reps in game situations builds and creates opportunities for the backup to get better.
Schmenger, we all understand your rationale in playing a back-up, but the accepted practice, right or wrong, is that the starter plays and the back-up, backs up, coming in mostly for garbage time - big leads or big deficits late in the game.  Coaches just do not pull healthy starting QBs, except for Chris Jones, and look at the heat he took from the guys calling the game, the panel, and the commentators.  It is just something that is almost never done.  Show me a starting QB who wants to be pulled in favour of the back-up, and I will show you a back-up in the making.

Back-ups apparently are to learn their trade at practice, film sessions and by watching and listening during the game.  You may well be right that it would build and create opportunities for the back-up, but I am afraid you are beating a dead horse on this one.

ExPat

Schmenger, we all understand your rationale in playing a back-up, but the accepted practice, right or wrong, is that the starter plays and the back-up, backs up, coming in mostly for garbage time - big leads or big deficits late in the game.  Coaches just do not pull healthy starting QBs, except for Chris Jones, and look at the heat he took from the guys calling the game, the panel, and the commentators.  It is just something that is almost never done.  Show me a starting QB who wants to be pulled in favour of the back-up, and I will show you a back-up in the making.

Back-ups apparently are to learn their trade at practice, film sessions and by watching and listening during the game.  You may well be right that it would build and create opportunities for the back-up, but I am afraid you are beating a dead horse on this one.
True, but not very persuasive.  You're essentially saying we can't do it here because it just isn't done around here.

I think coaches are just OK with betting the season on their starting QB staying healthy.  Back in their day (for any coach over 40, which is all of them I think), QBs weren't hurt as often so it made more sense.  Nowadays, for reasons no one has ever really explained, starting QBs drop like flies just about every season.  Those without a ready-to-go backup, forfeit.  Coach then says, hey it's not my fault our guy got injured.

CatsFaninOttawa

How much experience can a backup get by coming in for one or two series a game? What is the risk that doing this in close games would end up costing some or all of those games?

vs. 

The first game the backup starts would be an experience game. The team would likely lose that one, but by the end of that game, he'd have more experience than he'd have had coming in occasionally to replace the starter.

So it becomes devising between deliberately risking a number of games and possibly risking one game. 

I'm thinking that bringing the backup in becomes more important as the season goes on, as you wouldn't want the backups footrest time on the field to be a playoff game. But at this time of the season? Not that critical.

150GAGE

Just ask the 2007 Winnipeg Blue Bombers how important an experienced back up QB is.
If Kevin Glen was playing, two losing streaks that exist today; would most likely have come to an end.

In the current situation, JM is playing well enough, so JF can learn from the bench.

Next game, I'm predicting JF will see some game time.

ExPat

Just ask the 2007 Winnipeg Blue Bombers how important an experienced back up QB is.
If Kevin Glen was playing, two losing streaks that exist today; would most likely have come to an end. 
I always like to refute this assumption.  There are no guarantees, even when a team is heavily favoured.

- If BLM had played in the 2017 GC, CAL surely would have beaten TOR.
- If Khari Jones had played in the 2001 GC, WPG surely would have beaten CAL.
- If Matt Dunigan had played in the 1986 GC, EDM surely would have beaten HAM.

Right?  (Yeah, they all played, and all lost, despite being favoured to win.)

Other than that I agree with you.

Beam reach

Depth in your roster wins .
 A good backup coming in for a series will get a feel for the live game experience and the team gains valuable depth at the QB position.
   Doubt very much that good team loses a game by giving the starter a break to watch from the bench.
 Progressive coaches can see this ,so far this season two coaches have used their bench QB's and developed depth at that position.Wether we like those two coaches or not I respect them more than the TSN panel . J Climie supports a back up package if it matters .
  Interchanging Players at important positions is done all the time ,very few fans notice until it is the big guy at QB ,Long snapper, kickers...OK .

Palmer

Actually, I think very few starters get subbed in a game, unless it is for specific situations.  Extra DB on obvious passing downs, kicking ‘team’ of LS, holder, kicker, FB for RB, short yardage team.  Some teams rotate D-line, some, like Cats play a TE package.

But how often have we put in back-ups at DB, LB, O-line or receiver?  And if we do, is it for game experience, or ratio management?  Subs usually play if the starter gets nicked, or has to leave for some other reason.  Other than that, I don’t see many coaches wanting to take out the guy they think is the better player, to sub in one they feel is not as good.  

DisplacedCatsFan

If, say, Simoni is having a decent game, would you sub in a backup "just to get him some game time"?  I would think not.
In the 2013 playoffs, we subbed Burris and LeFevour because they had vastly different styles - and took full advantage of LeFevour's running/read-option abilities.
JM and JF have essentially the same abilities, so a special "package" of plays for JF wouldn't necessarily work.  Frankly, the only times I want to see JF sub into a game are when we're up or down by a large margin, or if Masoli gets hurt.
If JM poops the bed for a while (at lease 2 games), then it may be time to start JF...
Formerly sigpig

Velox Versutus Vigilans

R.I.P. Cpl Nathan Cirillo Albainn Gu Brath

Beam reach

True,I'm not subbing S Lawrence unless we're up a lot in the 4th like anybody else...I should have kept this to QB's ,the other reference was just that.
   As far as the two QB's having the same or different style of play ,I get that. It doesn't matter the back up gets playing time regardless.
   We the fans get entertained , .
     If your backup QB is lacking and that is a different story or a different approach .heaven forbid the starter goes down the coach can look the fans in the cameras eye and claim they did all they could to get the next guy some priceless playing time experience.

Mark

An earlier incarnation of Ottawa had Lancaster and Jackson. It worked for a while but eventually they had to trade one.

I enjoyed seeing the switching up in the 60's and 70's but it seems long gone.  It seemed to work then by confusing the defenses but things have changed.

Palmer

I think with Bridge and Watford now, Zuger and Cosentino, or Jackson and Lancaster then, and even Theisman and the other guy (Barton?) in Toronto with old Leo Cahill, they were dealing with two rookies who both needed to gain game time experience.  Rotating them made sense because they were trying to bring two guys up to speed simultaneously, and they really didn't have a big fall off as both were learning as they played.  In most cases, in my memory, it was a one season thing, and the guy that picked it up quickest became the eventual starter.

Other times like Wilkinson (sp?) and Moon, or Hamm and Calvillo, you have a guy on the way out and his successor on the way in.  Makes sense again to split time, the old timer sets the stage and establishes the offence, the new guy takes over and builds on the foundation.  But with Hamilton, Masoli is the declared starter and Manziel the declared back-up.  If Masoli falters, or is injured, Manziel comes in.  If all it takes is a game to bring Manziel up to speed, then that game will be the one that he replaces Masoli.  Why put him in now, bring him up to speed, and then sit him down again?  Or Manziel stays, what do you do with Masoli?  No need to fix what isn't broken.

Retro Rider

Ralph Sazio was Coach when Zuger and Cosentino came in for injured Bernie Faloney.
  Amazing read from those years below,Zuger was a Defensive Back and Punter when he came in for injured Faloney as QB ! Amazing!
Some impressive stats were compiled the night that Joe Zuger made his starting debut as a CFL QB on Oct. 15, 1962:

Joe Zuger - 23 completions in 32 attempts for 493 yards and a pro football record 8 TD passes. Zuger also led the Ti-Cats in rushing with 64 yards on 7 carries. 

Frank Cosentino - 4 completions in 5 attempts for 79 yards and 2 TD passes.

Hal Patterson - 8 receptions for 228 yards & 3 TD's.

Garney Henley - 6 receptions for 139 yards & 4 TD's.

Bob Ptacek (Saskatchewan) - 16 completions in 28 attempts for 259 yards & 3 TD's - including a 104 yard catch & run beauty by Rider halfback Ray Purdin in the first quarter.

Hamilton racked up 684 yards of total offence (572 passing yards). They also registered 29 first downs. All 13 major scores were achieved through the air! Can anyone confirm if there is existing film footage of this game? Molson sponsored a CFL Game of the Week program around that time so I'm guessing it's possible.

(from packershistory.net):
MONDAY OCTOBER 15, 1962
HAMILTON 67, Saskatchewan 21 (19000) - Joe Zuger threw eight TD passes, a Canadian football record, as the Tiger-Cats won the final East-West game of the season. It was the first starting assignment at quarterback for the
22-year-old, who completed 23 of 32 passes for 493 yards, which was not a record.





PatLynch


My brother and I were at the game and I believe we were in section 28 . The entire game film is in my head but the sprockets seem to be malfunctioning . Obviously Zuger and the O were flawless and remember that those were the days when Lancaster could throw the ball into the 10th row and no grounding call flag would be seen. ;)

I'd love to see the game again in Classic CFL.

Pat Lynch (the old guy)
 


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