Hammertown Proud

James St North and area would be a major focal point for many GC events.

The Last Word

A Hamilton Grey Cup would make money...probably in the 5 million range.  A decent amount but less than any Grey Cup in recent memory.  Most likely after the initial ticket buying spree there would be 10,000 or so remaining from the initial allotment of 35,000 seats.  This would likely result on massive discounts, a major sponsor stepping forward to buy a large block of seats at a discount and hundreds (or thousands?) of tickets being set aside for volunteers and military personnel. 

The Grey Cup festivities would have lower attendances as well resulting in lower revenues then one would typically expect from Grey Cup week.  This is a result of lack of amenities in Hamilton, in particular hotel accommodations.  It is a fact that Hamilton has fewer hotel rooms than any other CFL city, even Regina.  Yes, people can stay in hotels in the GTA and St. Catherines and Niagara but it will not be enjoyable having to take a train or car and travel an hour each way for 3 to 4 nights straight to attend the various events.

As a result, Hamilton will have the fewest out-of-town visitors of any Grey Cup meaning the locals will be relied more than ever to purchase tickets for the game and the event.  This worked in tiny Regina where 80 - 90 % of the people attending all the events were from the city and surrounding areas but I wouldn't count on 30,000+ people in Hamilton spending an average of $300 a ticket plus hundreds more on admissions, food, alcohol and souvenirs for the festivities.  It won't happen.

With all that said, I think Hamilton will host a Grey Cup in the forseeable future.  If the dispute regarding the stadium is not resolved in the next 6 months or so, I expect to hear an announcement of the 2019 Grey Cup to be held in either Vancouver or Calgary (apparently they tried to bid on 2018 Grey Cup which was won by Edmonton).

FormerlyTurkish

Grover lovely chart. However within 1.5 miles of THF if its own city would not make the chart.  Sadly thats where our politicos decided to build the stadium.  Someone mentioned James N.  Man that would be special if the stadium were say closeby? 

Aerial

My friend, you are living in the past, live in the present and think of the future while respecting the past.  Your life will be much richer and you will be able to add to the present in a much more meaningful manner.

The stadium is where it is, politics decides, and you move on and work the best with what you have.  Sure, we are unfortunate in Hamilton to have a Mayor and a TiCats owner that just aren't friends but we all have to live what that and make the best of what it is.

The stadium will be very close to the future LRT if this does happen and in the long run, better there than some stadium out in the boonies like Orchard Park.  The future of cities is public transit and THF is positioned perfectly for that, absolutely perfectly.
"Canadian football does in fact have 4 downs, its just that as Canadians we are very polite and punt on the third down" -John Candy, SCTV

Hammertown Proud

one downtown area better than another?

if it wasn't going to be at current location, option 2 and 3 were Aldershot off 403 and Centennial Pkwy off QEW.

But the habourfront spot, with the many toxic backyards and even less access than THF location, was never really considered seriously.

Aerial

Thank goodness it wasn't built at West Harbour with a cap over the toxic site that could have ended up with the stadium being torn down because the capping wasn't done right.  That was a potential disaster that Fred should have known better but didn't matter, he had/has a hate-on with Bob so that's the way it was and probably still is.

FormerlyTurkish

Since you mentioned LRT. Brought to you by the same buffoons who brought us THF.  I am happy you are enthusiastic to have your tax dollars go to supporting a stadium that doesnt have any revenue generating events what 345 out of 365 days of the year and will saddle us with gridlock and enormous taxes for a Lrt from nowhere to nowhere and when we do get a GC will saddle us with that too. Its all about the $$$.

The Last Word

Since you mentioned LRT. Brought to you by the same buffoons who brought us THF.  I am happy you are enthusiastic to have your tax dollars go to supporting a stadium that doesnt have any revenue generating events what 345 out of 365 days of the year and will saddle us with gridlock and enormous taxes for a Lrt from nowhere to nowhere and when we do get a GC will saddle us with that too. Its all about the $$$.
Regardless of where the stadium is located, it would be vacant the majority of the year.  In a new location you would be lucky to add one or two more concerts.

Aerial

Very true TLW.

-Hammer-

one downtown area better than another?

if it wasn't going to be at current location, option 2 and 3 were Aldershot off 403 and Centennial Pkwy off QEW.

But the habourfront spot, with the many toxic backyards and even less access than THF location, was never really considered seriously.

Aldershot was never going to happen because the city of Hamilton was never going to put it's future fund money to pay for a stadium that's in the jurisdiction of another city and Burlington was never going to pay a cent towards it. They very idea that City of Hamilton should use it's money to develop a stadium in another city is not only absurd but frankly offensive to every Hamiltonian taxpayer.

As far as Centennial Parkway at Confederation Park, this was already beaten to death in the stadium debate, but it's limited access to GO service, traffic nightmare of a spot (even with parking), objections by the beach neighbourhood, the area already earmarked for a Bayfront Park style redevelopment and the fact that when the wind turns the wrong way, black metallic particulate can literally rain over the site due to it's proximity to the mills is why it was not viable.

The East Mountain was also never going to happen because the land they facilitator suggested was already mid-sale by the time the facilitator mentioned it and then city wasn't going to sacrifice the giant mound of commercial and development tax revenue that came from that site.

Given the West Harbour was the site selected for the much earlier Commonwealth Games bid in 200,to say it wasn't a serious site is a fabrication. Given it's proximity to the GO station, parking at Bayfront and Pier 4 Park and that it was the only site close to James St. N which just about everyone in this thread agrees, is the likely festival location, speaks to the strength of that site.

However, it's split milk that has long gone rancid by now. It is the fault of both the Ti-Cats and the City ending up back at old Ivor Wynne. How the Cats move forward with the current site is the question. Frankly the only decent option I see if James St N festival with convention centre use downtown and then a big tailgate/concert followed by a Cup march from Gage Park the day of.

Aerial

I'm guessing if Fred had of negotiated with the Cats the operation of Hamilton Place and FOC and the Studio that West Harbour would have happened but he was catering to Katz of the Oilers at the time, from my understanding, to try and woo the Oilers here if the new arena wasn't going to happen in Edmonton and part of this was giving Katz the operation of the stadium.  I believe that was a huge mistake by Fred and cost him his West Harbour location.  He gambled, and lost.

However for myself, I'm very glad West Harbour didn't get approved, for myself as someone who goes for walks down there, last thing I want is stadium and sports fans noise pollution to ruin the serenity of W Harbour.  At least now the City can develop this area with developers with a proper mix of residential and commercial development without an outdoor sports stadium.  I think Longwoods would have been a great site IMHO.  West Harbour is much too valuable land with it's location to have a large outdoor sports stadium on it.  It deserves more respect than what football games would have provided to the area, deserves far more respect.  And real long term planning.

Below is a great read for anyone interested:

Urban Waterfront Manifesto


Quote
With this growing popularity comes a tendency by some to look for the quick solution, to adopt a formula that may have worked somewhere else. In the 1980's it was the "festival marketplace" fad. In the 1990's, it is the "urban entertainment district" and/or stadiums. In a time of pervading sameness and homogenization worldwide this is particularly dismaying because waterfronts above all factors give each community a chance to express its individuality and help distinguish it from others.
http://www.waterfrontcenter.org/about/manifesto.htm

And this doesn't sound like an area to put a large outdoor sports stadium:


Quote
West Harbour

It has been called the most valuable real estate in all of Ontario. Hamilton is sitting on some of the most desirable undeveloped land in the province, not just at Piers 7 and 8, but also the Barton-Tiffany lands, acquired by the city for the Pan Am stadium, and now awaiting development. Hamilton should not be in any rush to build on these properties simply to generate taxes. We need a clearer vision of what lies ahead in the long term for the CN Rail yards, which will restrict the kinds of development that may be best suited for the community.
https://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/6209467-the-spectator-s-view-hamilton-priorities-for-2016/

-Hammer-

I'm guessing if Fred had of negotiated with the Cats the operation of Hamilton Place and FOC and the Studio that West Harbour would have happened but he was catering to Katz of the Oilers at the time, from my understanding, to try and woo the Oilers here if the new arena wasn't going to happen in Edmonton and part of this was giving Katz the operation of the stadium.  I believe that was a huge mistake by Fred and cost him his West Harbour location.  He gambled, and lost.

However for myself, I'm very glad West Harbour didn't get approved, for myself as someone who goes for walks down there, last thing I want is stadium and sports fans noise pollution to ruin the serenity of W Harbour.  At least now the City can develop this area with developers with a proper mix of residential and commercial development without an outdoor sports stadium.  I think Longwoods would have been a great site IMHO.  West Harbour is much too valuable land with it's location to have a large outdoor sports stadium on it.  It deserves more respect than what football games would have provided to the area, deserves far more respect.  And real long term planning.
To the first, Katz was never moving the Oilers here. Given how hard the league fought moving the Bankrupt Coyotes to Hamilton (and lose TV revenue), they weren't about to move the profitable Oilers to Hamilton (having the same arena issues and keeping pretty much the same TV revenue). Everyone knew this. The whole thing with him though was he wanted the management rights of the facilities in Hamilton. As to why, I'm sure leveraging Edmonton for a better deal was small part of it but also because the cost of buying those rights were relatively cheap and would give his company a foothold into the large Golden Horseshoe market. He wanted to corner those rights early so the city wouldn't open the facility to a bidding war. The city at the time was desperate to have someone else manage the facility because it was costing the city and arm and a leg to manage it themselves (and doing a terrible job at it). No one had expressed even a modicum of interest at that time, so Fred reasonably looked at what he had to say. Fred even said publicly that meeting with him was separate from the Stadium negotiations and that it would be foolish not to listen to what Katz proposed (give the tire fire that was HECFI), but everyone ignored that and opted to scream that he was trying to leverage Katz against the the Cats, despite Katz not having an CFL or MLS franchise (or even interest) to create said leverage.

In the end though, Fred lost an election to Bratina before anything was worked out, and the council opted to setup open bidding on the facility (which Fred was leaning towards anyways as Katz didn't bring a lot to the table during their meeting and it was clear he was just testing the waters and trying to panic Edmonton). His interest was still genuine though, as he did try to bid for the rights to FOC, Hamilton Place and the Convention Centre. However Global Spectrum and the locals at Carmen's won that bid over Katz's company. This did cost the city additional money (as we had to keep HECFI for a bit longer) and Katz did offer more raw money long term, but because Global Spectrum had local investment attached to them (keeping money in the local economy) and that they proposed more in the way of immediate facility improvements (which overall made it a net gain) it made their bid more appealing. While it could be argued, I would say that Global Spectrum's bid ended up as the better option.

From my understanding, Katz was also planning to buy the Erie Otters at the time as well, and likely would have tried to move them to FOC if the purchase and management rights went through. However the then owner of Erie then sold to someone else who was going to keep the team in Erie. This is why he's sueing the old owner right now, as apparently he entered into some kind of pre-purchase agreement with that team. Not sure how that ended up going down.

As far as the West Harbour, a break in the serenity for 11 Football games and 2 concerts a year isn't substantial. If the team does make good on a Soccer Team it's a slightly different story, but even at two dates a week, I don't think that is world ending, and it seems to work fine for BMO and the Ex and their waterfront. Also given the plans to expand and redevelop the Beach Strip (and Confederation Park) where you can actually swim safely, I'd say a wholly acceptable sacrifice.

As far as the land being valuable, that is true but it's contaminated, which means costly soil remediation that the private sector doesn't want to touch with a 20 foot pole. It's why the city wanted to use it for a stadium site, because you can draw Federal and Provincial dollars towards fixing it and it's far easier to perform that remediation with a large development where you don't have to worry about multiple developments and digging new lines, sewage and road creation, for the entire locale vs one or two large infrastructure feeds and permanent facility where after the build, is unlikely to be disturbed for decades, whereas now the city and the taxpayer needs to go solo on the land cleanup. It's why the land is still sitting idle today.

brianjoxx

Since you mentioned LRT. Brought to you by the same buffoons who brought us THF.  I am happy you are enthusiastic to have your tax dollars go to supporting a stadium that doesnt have any revenue generating events what 345 out of 365 days of the year and will saddle us with gridlock and enormous taxes for a Lrt from nowhere to nowhere and when we do get a GC will saddle us with that too. Its all about the $$$.
Regardless of where the stadium is located, it would be vacant the majority of the year.  In a new location you would be lucky to add one or two more concerts.
Thanks Last word. I"ll keep it simple. TODAY lets use the NHL as an example. What did Edmonton oilers do, Calgary wants to do, Ottawa wants to do, Montreal and Toronto did. Vancouver and Winnipeg closely followed. What did they DO! DEVELOP the downtown core, building a arena, hotel, 3 large major condo residence, major new shopping and entertainment center.$$$$$$
City throw in a 100 million for stadium but will get it all back over 10 years in taxes.
Province did the same and will be paid back by visitors and user fee.

Hopefully Hamilton will get a CUP visit. But its not a gimme. They did nothing special.

So to the point. Be like the new stadiums in North America. Make good deals with your city and province building in great locations that can handle 100 events a year. Don't go cheap.
Not Sure why Hamilton is in a bind but they will work it out.
For expansion in CFL league, MUST approve of location and business plan OR MOVE ON.
No more anchors. Watch Calgary they will do it right. Good stadiums equally competitive football.
Mini stadiums don't work. Should be large around 30,000 to be competitive.

Guys work on a positive deal. For expansion lets look at booming cities.

Aerial

Hammer, imagine the mess if the West Harbour site had a stadium put on it and cleanup/capping was rushed through all in the name of the Pan-Scam Games and it was found out later that the stadium would have to be torn down to remediate and cap the site properly.  My guess is the TigerCats would have been blamed for agreeing to the site, I bet my bottom dollar.


Quote
As far as the West Harbour, a break in the serenity for 11 Football games and 2 concerts a year isn't substantial.
Well I understand a lot of people living down by the bayfront area were thinking that a stadium there was not something they wanted at the bayfront.  For good reason if I lived there.

West Harbour IMHO, and we all have our opinions, was the wrong place to put an oudoor sports stadium.  The height of it alone, THF is quite high, would have disconnected the downtown area to the waterfront from simply a sight aspect let alone just the wrong place for a large sports stadium.  Hamilton got lucky the stadium was not built there, extremely lucky.  Again, just in my opinion.  Well and in some others' opinions as well ie:

What now with the west harbour?

Quote
With the future vision of the west harbour that includes a football stadium seemingly a thing of the past, a meeting has been called for residents to discuss other options for the waterfront and the Tiffany-Barton Street area and its buildings.

Longtime North- End resident Shawn Selway has organized an informal gathering starting at 7 p.m. Monday at the You Me Gallery at 330 James St. N.

Part of the focus will be on the future of old buildings in the area, such as the former and now empty Rheem factory.

Selway has invited David Schellingerhoudt, a graduate student at the University of Waterloo’s School of Architecture, to speak and present some ideas he has developed for the area.

“I see a diamond in the rough there,” Schellingerhoudt said. “It’s really an interesting area, the location, history, the buildings. The stadium was a bit of a pipe dream, a quick fix. I think now there is room to do great things, take into account all the opportunities that exist to rethink what to do there.”

No registration is required for the meeting. Selway said he’s hoping to get 20 or 30 people to show.
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2183390-what-now-for-the-west-harbour-/  - Jan. 2011

-Hammer-

Hammer, imagine the mess if the West Harbour site had a stadium put on it and cleanup/capping was rushed through all in the name of the Pan-Scam Games and it was found out later that the stadium would have to be torn down to remediate and cap the site properly.  My guess is the TigerCats would have been blamed for agreeing to the site, I bet my bottom dollar.


Quote
As far as the West Harbour, a break in the serenity for 11 Football games and 2 concerts a year isn't substantial.
Well I understand a lot of people living down by the bayfront area were thinking that a stadium there was not something they wanted at the bayfront.  For good reason if I lived there.

West Harbour IMHO, and we all have our opinions, was the wrong place to put an oudoor sports stadium.  The height of it alone, THF is quite high, would have disconnected the downtown area to the waterfront from simply a sight aspect let alone just the wrong place for a large sports stadium.  Hamilton got lucky the stadium was not built there, extremely lucky.  Again, just in my opinion.  Well and in some others' opinions as well ie:

What now with the west harbour?

Quote
With the future vision of the west harbour that includes a football stadium seemingly a thing of the past, a meeting has been called for residents to discuss other options for the waterfront and the Tiffany-Barton Street area and its buildings.

Longtime North- End resident Shawn Selway has organized an informal gathering starting at 7 p.m. Monday at the You Me Gallery at 330 James St. N.

Part of the focus will be on the future of old buildings in the area, such as the former and now empty Rheem factory.

Selway has invited David Schellingerhoudt, a graduate student at the University of Waterloo’s School of Architecture, to speak and present some ideas he has developed for the area.

“I see a diamond in the rough there,” Schellingerhoudt said. “It’s really an interesting area, the location, history, the buildings. The stadium was a bit of a pipe dream, a quick fix. I think now there is room to do great things, take into account all the opportunities that exist to rethink what to do there.”

No registration is required for the meeting. Selway said he’s hoping to get 20 or 30 people to show.
https://www.thespec.com/news-story/2183390-what-now-for-the-west-harbour-/  - Jan. 2011
To the first point, it wouldn't have been an issue if the site that was chosen for over half a decade was accepted. I don't know how you could have blamed the Cats given that was the city's choice location. You also would have had time to build the stadium properly and address time issues since you wouldn't have lost over a year fighting. As far as the viability of the site, given the province and the feds were ready to accept that place as the location to build, I somehow doubt it would have been an engineering impossibility.

As far as the height, the stadium is two floors larger then the old three story eyesore of a Rheem factory that was already present there at the time. As far as the disconnection, I will say yes there is a bit of walk from the core proper, but the walk from the MacNab transit terminal to the site is slightly more then same distance as the walk from Union Station to the far side of the Rogers Center if you take Front St and the GO station is literally across the Street. The only difference is one is the Toronto walk is through a developed area of the city, and Hamilton it's through some housing along Bay St. 

However now we are far off topic. As great a spot the West Harbour would have been for a Grey Cup, how to make Tim Horton's Field viable as a Grey Cup venue starts with both the city, province and the team, checking themselves and sorting out the stadium litigation like professionals instead of taking social media pot shots at each other, or engaging in absurd positional negotiation. 
 


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