Paolo X

I am kind of wondering what was going on in Euclid's head when he signed in BC last month. Maybe he likes it out here, as the alleged incident took place two days after the Bombers played at BC Place.

But if you knew you were facing criminal charges and were due before the courts in October, would you want to (try to) play in the jurisdiction in which it allegedly occured or get as far away from the place as possible?!?

I want to see better leadership from Ambrosie on this as it's not going away. The league of course gave the obligatory "can't comment on something that's before the courts" statement. Meanwhile he's tweeting today about his great workout at #CFLgind.

Get on this one, Commish!
What do you want to see Ambrosie to do here. Be more vocal about it?

As depop and letsgoticats have said..I'm torn here as well He's been charged but not convicted. Tommie Campbell was charged with a fairly major drug bust awhile back. Calgary stuck with him and he was cleared. Should a charge mean an auto firing? As I say I'm torn on this issue as it feels a bit like a dangerous overreaction in these days.
Doesn't it depend on the charge? If a guy is charged with jaywalking then voiding his contract is going too far. However, if he's charged with a violent crime and there is strong evidence to support the charge then perhaps voiding the contract is prudent given that the might not actually be available to play.

There can't be a one-size-fits-all answer to the problem.
I guess the only way to be consistent here is:
-no player will be allowed to play if charged with a felony
or
-any player charged with a felony can play until found guilty in a court of law
Oh if it were only that simple. The matters of sexual violence and domestic violence, given so much abuse and cover-ups over the years, have been game changers in recent years. The leagues are not going to take the publicity hit, and advertiser lumps that come with hits to publicity, for the sake of one charged player nowadays.
Best Regards, Paolo

rhymes with orange

Yup.

Innocent until proven guilty? Not for public figures. That's a sentimental notion from another era.

Nowadays, it's innocent until accused. Rightly or wrongly, the stakes are just too high for professional sports leagues to keep someone employed while it goes through due process. Ezekiel Elliot is a prime example.

everyman

Yup.

Innocent until proven guilty? Not for public figures. That's a sentimental notion from another era.

Nowadays, it's innocent until accused. Rightly or wrongly, the stakes are just too high for professional sports leagues to keep someone employed while it goes through due process. Ezekiel Elliot is a prime example.
Ok...so I said the only way to be consistently is to develop a policy that says:

A: No contract if charged  with a felony
or
B: Can play until a negative court ruling

So you think A is the way to go given the current climate?

Paolo X

Yup.

Innocent until proven guilty? Not for public figures. That's a sentimental notion from another era.

Nowadays, it's innocent until accused. Rightly or wrongly, the stakes are just too high for professional sports leagues to keep someone employed while it goes through due process. Ezekiel Elliot is a prime example.
Ok...so I said the only way to be consistently is to develop a policy that says:

A: No contract if charged  with a felony
or
B: Can play until a negative court ruling

So you think A is the way to go given the current climate?
I'm going to say option A with the following conditions given especially the prevalence of social media. 

It's just not as easy to cover things up any more and when things are covered up, the associated corruption is well over the top any more.

Contracts ought to be suspended, not voided, until due process runs its course for players being charged with certain felonies and with at least one of the following conditions in place.

I'm thinking out loud here and probably not covering every scenario as could involve violent felonies.

If a player is charged with certain felonies of a violent nature, at least one of the following should also be at hand before the league moves to act on the charges itself:

i) There is video evidence of the actual illegal physical contact by the player whether or not admissible in court.

ii) There is video evidence of a clear threat of violence against at least one party captured also on audio (i.e. "I'm going to kill you" stated in a threatening voice is different than "I wish you'd die!") also whether or not admissible in court.

iii) There is evidence of the unlawful possession of any given weapon or explosive by the player, or any given item being used as a weapon or explosive (i.e. bat, broken bottle, chair, bottle rocket, et cetera), with the allegation by at least one party and with at least one witness of a violent threat having been made or action taken by the player when in possession of the weapon, explosive, or item used as such. Such a situation is common in any given bar fight scenario for example.

Failing any of the above evidence, due process should run its course before the league acts to suspend a contract.

rpaege


It's unlikely that anybody charged with an Indictable Offence would be reliably available to fulfill his contract.

Paolo X


It's unlikely that anybody charged with an Indictable Offence would be reliably available to fulfill his contract.
Case by case here I say. None of us know how any single player, irrespective of looming verdict with due process of the law, would react if allowed to play due to lack of the sort of evidence I described below even after being charged with a felony of a violent nature.

Remember Ray Lewis? Many years later, there is still plenty of chatter about his situation despite his acquittal of the murder charges. He played just fine all those years right?

Failing some video and or other heavy evidence often already in the public eye such as I noted below, I say give any such charged player a chance. It won't be any easier to perform, and due process will run its course anyway.

GHT120

Yup.

Innocent until proven guilty? Not for public figures. That's a sentimental notion from another era.

Nowadays, it's innocent until accused. Rightly or wrongly, the stakes are just too high for professional sports leagues to keep someone employed while it goes through due process. Ezekiel Elliot is a prime example.
Ok...so I said the only way to be consistently is to develop a policy that says:

A: No contract if charged  with a felony
or
B: Can play until a negative court ruling

So you think A is the way to go given the current climate?
... Contracts ought to be suspended, not voided, until due process runs its course for players being charged with certain felonies ...
As a general principle that sounds good to me.  The varying circumstances from case-to-case likley make anything beyond that unrealistic in terms of a "written policy".
Let's  not confuse FACTS with OPINIONS

beaglehound


Contracts ought to be suspended, not voided, until due process runs its course for players being charged with certain felonies....
I agree! 

Question: if the charges prove baseless should the player be financially compensated?

joe

This is all on the Bombers. No way around it.

Were there others who were with Cummings that night? Seems to be the way they roll in small groups. 

I say everyone in the Bomber locker room knew what went down. Bombers played it up to make it sound like the season was over without mentioning the playoff game where if they had any proper sense of decency or character they would have placed Cummings on suspension and not played him. 

They almost won the playoff game. Would they have played him in the Western final?

As an earlier poster mentioned it was a perfect storm that allowed for the Bombers to distance themselves from this revolting issue. When the news did break the next week they come out with the violence against women program. Makes me want to puke.

If a proper investigation does take place I would hope the Bombers role and course of actions are included and proper recourse taken. Bombers Board of Directors to be included.

The travesty other than the actual event is the cover up. Time for Wade Miller to take the stand. 

depopulationINC

This is all on the Bombers. No way around it.

Were there others who were with Cummings that night? Seems to be the way they roll in small groups.

I say everyone in the Bomber locker room knew what went down. Bombers played it up to make it sound like the season was over without mentioning the playoff game where if they had any proper sense of decency or character they would have placed Cummings on suspension and not played him.

They almost won the playoff game. Would they have played him in the Western final?

As an earlier poster mentioned it was a perfect storm that allowed for the Bombers to distance themselves from this revolting issue. When the news did break the next week they come out with the violence against women program. Makes me want to puke.

If a proper investigation does take place I would hope the Bombers role and course of actions are included and proper recourse taken. Bombers Board of Directors to be included.

The travesty other than the actual event is the cover up. Time for Wade Miller to take the stand.
I believe I mentioned the perfect storm, but all this said.... I thought the Bombers reported it to the CFL?  What more does one really expect?  Are they to launch an investigation when charges are not even pressed?  I mean, if the person on the other end of a crime doesn't press charges should clubs be expected to do so themselves?  Not in my opinion.  And yes...I would entirely play him unless there are charges.  The only thing that might change my mind is a Ray Rice situation where the obvious is on film and you hand out an immediate punishment.  

I suppose they could have went back to the league when her was signed by the Esks and reminded them...but he still wasn't charged.  Should an employer be phoning another employer and saying "yeah, this guy may have done something bad...he might be charged...we don't know, but he might be."  To me, if no charges ever came and I found out about that if it cost me a job...I will see you in court.  Assuming they told the CFL, they did their part.  A year and a half later when he was signed in BC he would have been pretty far off their radar and they would have likely assumed charges never got laid by that point, if they thought of it at all.

Paolo X


Contracts ought to be suspended, not voided, until due process runs its course for players being charged with certain felonies....
I agree!

Question: if the charges prove baseless should the player be financially compensated?
Yes though according to a formula agreed in the contract with the CFL players union such that the player who was wrongly charged would receive a majority of his pay.

The amount could, and in my opinion should, be more than what would be received via Workers Compensation laws. I am not sure how those laws work in Canada by province exactly, but in much of the US the amount for Workers Compensation is 2/3 of lost pay so in this situation I would say said player should receive no less than
80% of lost base pay
PLUS of the amount of any associated fine by the league or other levy refunded during the suspension if paid already by said player
PLUS simple interest at 10% since the date of suspension by the CFL on all fines, levies, league expenses, et cetera (not on lost base salary).

depopulationINC


Contracts ought to be suspended, not voided, until due process runs its course for players being charged with certain felonies....
I agree!

Question: if the charges prove baseless should the player be financially compensated?
Yes though according to a formula agreed in the contract with the CFL players union such that the player who was wrongly charged would receive a majority of his pay.

The amount could, and in my opinion should, be more than what would be received via Workers Compensation laws. I am not sure how those laws work in Canada by province exactly, but in much of the US the amount for Workers Compensation is 2/3 of lost pay so in this situation I would say said player should receive no less than
80% of lost base pay
PLUS of the amount of any associated fine by the league or other levy refunded during the suspension if paid already by said player
PLUS simple interest at 10% since the date of suspension by the CFL on all fines, levies, league expenses, et cetera (not on lost base salary).
Or, how's about employers stop assigning a guilty verdict before the justice system does....and if they do choose to take the safe route and achieve separation, then pay the given employee's salary while the contract is still valid and the given matter is unresolved, unless of course there is indisputable evidence, as in the Ray Rice situation, or they admit guilt.

I am all for people guilty of these things paying for it dearly, and I even believe that the vast majority of the allegations in these situations are true...but we all know a person or know of a person either through friends or the news that it was not true.  While the justice system is far from perfect, it is what we have and one of the better systems in the world...and I for one do not believe that social opinion should trump that system before it has a chance to act....social opinion is important and should still be there, but it should not strip someone of employment, or at least their pay...because I do believe an employer has the right to safeguard itself from public opinion...but that should not mean that they get to rip up employment agreements.

joe

Or, how's about employers stop assigning a guilty verdict before the justice system does....and if they do choose to take the safe route and achieve separation, then pay the given employee's salary while the contract is still valid and the given matter is unresolved, unless of course there is indisputable evidence, as in the Ray Rice situation, or they admit guilt.

I am all for people guilty of these things paying for it dearly, and I even believe that the vast majority of the allegations in these situations are true...but we all know a person or know of a person either through friends or the news that it was not true.  While the justice system is far from perfect, it is what we have and one of the better systems in the world...and I for one do not believe that social opinion should trump that system before it has a chance to act....social opinion is important and should still be there, but it should not strip someone of employment, or at least their pay...because I do believe an employer has the right to safeguard itself from public opinion...but that should not mean that they get to rip up employment agreements.
Just seems odd that the Bombers are trying to distance themselves from the conversation if they did everything so right. 

Why the emphasis on the following week was a bye week and the season was over story suggesting Cummings was done as a member of the team when the playoffs were yet to come?

The precedent was set in Winnipeg by the Board of Directors with Mike Kelly. Only difference was the no headline news. Was the Board even involved or informed this time or was it more convenient to handle the matter internally? 

Lots of bs going on with Winnipeg. Wrong guys with the keys to the bus imo. #1 is to start treating people with some respect. After a while nobody wants anything to do with it.

We'll see. Bombers won't win the Grey Cup this year but watch for the contract extensions for the Our Gang crew. That really is the main goal.

depopulationINC

Or, how's about employers stop assigning a guilty verdict before the justice system does....and if they do choose to take the safe route and achieve separation, then pay the given employee's salary while the contract is still valid and the given matter is unresolved, unless of course there is indisputable evidence, as in the Ray Rice situation, or they admit guilt.

I am all for people guilty of these things paying for it dearly, and I even believe that the vast majority of the allegations in these situations are true...but we all know a person or know of a person either through friends or the news that it was not true.  While the justice system is far from perfect, it is what we have and one of the better systems in the world...and I for one do not believe that social opinion should trump that system before it has a chance to act....social opinion is important and should still be there, but it should not strip someone of employment, or at least their pay...because I do believe an employer has the right to safeguard itself from public opinion...but that should not mean that they get to rip up employment agreements.
Just seems odd that the Bombers are trying to distance themselves from the conversation if they did everything so right.

Why the emphasis on the following week was a bye week and the season was over story suggesting Cummings was done as a member of the team when the playoffs were yet to come?

The precedent was set in Winnipeg by the Board of Directors with Mike Kelly. Only difference was the no headline news. Was the Board even involved or informed this time or was it more convenient to handle the matter internally?

Lots of bs going on with Winnipeg. Wrong guys with the keys to the bus imo. #1 is to start treating people with some respect. After a while nobody wants anything to do with it.

We'll see. Bombers won't win the Grey Cup this year but watch for the contract extensions for the Our Gang crew. That really is the main goal.

Not really.  I would to.

Who cares who knew?  They informed the CFL...that is all that matters...they did their part.

joe

Or, how's about employers stop assigning a guilty verdict before the justice system does....and if they do choose to take the safe route and achieve separation, then pay the given employee's salary while the contract is still valid and the given matter is unresolved, unless of course there is indisputable evidence, as in the Ray Rice situation, or they admit guilt.

I am all for people guilty of these things paying for it dearly, and I even believe that the vast majority of the allegations in these situations are true...but we all know a person or know of a person either through friends or the news that it was not true.  While the justice system is far from perfect, it is what we have and one of the better systems in the world...and I for one do not believe that social opinion should trump that system before it has a chance to act....social opinion is important and should still be there, but it should not strip someone of employment, or at least their pay...because I do believe an employer has the right to safeguard itself from public opinion...but that should not mean that they get to rip up employment agreements.
Just seems odd that the Bombers are trying to distance themselves from the conversation if they did everything so right.

Why the emphasis on the following week was a bye week and the season was over story suggesting Cummings was done as a member of the team when the playoffs were yet to come?

The precedent was set in Winnipeg by the Board of Directors with Mike Kelly. Only difference was the no headline news. Was the Board even involved or informed this time or was it more convenient to handle the matter internally?

Lots of bs going on with Winnipeg. Wrong guys with the keys to the bus imo. #1 is to start treating people with some respect. After a while nobody wants anything to do with it.

We'll see. Bombers won't win the Grey Cup this year but watch for the contract extensions for the Our Gang crew. That really is the main goal.

Not really.  I would to.

Who cares who knew?  They informed the CFL...that is all that matters...they did their part.
True enough.

I may have been thinking of it as having people involved in an organization representing said organization in a responsible and accountable manner. Comes back to all of us under the community ownership business model.

Can't wait for you to roll out the she may have been dressed provocatively story.

Wrong is wrong. 
 


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