c-way-dude

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
But look how long you guys have waited for a Grey Cup... Putting one in the deal in the first five years might still be a nice negotiation point.
I would think a Grey Cup would be part of the agreement.  It was for Ottawa for both the RedBlacks and Renegades.

Iconic SR

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
But look how long you guys have waited for a Grey Cup... Putting one in the deal in the first five years might still be a nice negotiation point.
I would think a Grey Cup would be part of the agreement.  It was for Ottawa for both the RedBlacks and Renegades.
The one main difference that could make it very difficult for Halifax to host a Grey Cup in their early years - is the newness of it all. They don’t have any experience hosting events of such size. The committees and volunteers needed to do such, have no existence or experience there yet. A few seasons of CFL football will help, but hosting a Grey Cup is still a huge undertaking, and at risk of failure if the ducks aren’t all in a row. 

schoonersfan

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
But look how long you guys have waited for a Grey Cup... Putting one in the deal in the first five years might still be a nice negotiation point.
I would think a Grey Cup would be part of the agreement.  It was for Ottawa for both the RedBlacks and Renegades.
The one main difference that could make it very difficult for Halifax to host a Grey Cup in their early years - is the newness of it all. They don’t have any experience hosting events of such size. The committees and volunteers needed to do such, have no existence or experience there yet. A few seasons of CFL football will help, but hosting a Grey Cup is still a huge undertaking, and at risk of failure if the ducks aren’t all in a row.
I have to disagree with you about the volunteers not having experience with such a size event. We have always had great volunteers for any event held in this city, weather it is the World Juniors, Tall Ships, Buskers, International Tattoo, The Brier, or the Memorial Cup there is always a strong turnout of people volunteering. Now not all or any of these events are the same size or undertaking as the Grey Cup, but I just wanted to bring that up so we don't just underestimate the work that has and can be done in this region by hard working maritimers. 

The Last Word

What's the income tax on roughly 150 salaries totaling 10 plus million a year?

3 Million dollars roughly? would that be fair?That's just in Income tax, that does not include taxes collected from building the stadium or employees working at the stadium.

Then there is tourism dollars, business tax, Sales tax, fuel tax from people traveling, revenues for the transit system. National television exposure. Airport and taxes on flights. 600 round-trip flights a year for the home team and then 600 round-trip flights from visiting teams (that does not include scouting just game day staff flying in and out works out to roughly 300 000.00 a year.

Then there is a ticket surcharge. Let's say 5 bucks a ticket x 20 000 x 10 games another cool million dollars.


This would be good for the local economy and good for government.


If Stadium financing costs are kept under 5 million a year this is  money maker for government.

There is an even bigger case to build a stadium here because it is revenue positive. Where when replacing an existing stadium, Government gets very little increase in revenues to what it is already collecting.
Sigh.  This is not new tax money being generated.  Other businesses that lose out on the disposable income of the public that is now allocated to the new CFL team will, as a result, be paying less taxes due to loss of business.  The loss of business will also mean the need for fewer employees and employee hours.  That will also result in the loss of tax revenue.

Government allocating public funds for this project means there will be less funds for other public projects so there will be no positive gains in tax revenue from construction.  

Tourism will be negligible as the majority of the spectators for CFL football will live within an hour to two hours drive from the stadium.  It is likely that those who live further away and go to games have already been coming to Halifax on a regular basis given its cultural and economic importance in the region.

The ticket tax is a good idea and one I suspect will be implemented for all events, not just football.

The Last Word

Any new goods or services activity that did not exist prior - is a new revenue stream and benefit to the federal government, whether the patrons paying that GST are local or foreign.

GST is about taxing activity and goods/services bought.
New purchases = new revenue.

Example: A person who chooses NOT to attend a football game typically doesn’t spend that exact same amount of disposable income on something else that same day. The feds thus benefit from the GST on the money that otherwise would have stayed in pocket. In my own case, if we didn’t hold season tickets and regularly go to games and spend $ there, we wouldn’t have paid that same amount of $ over the years on something else. Rather - my retirement savings would be much better than they are.  
I would have more $ and the feds would have less GST.
Yes, I'm sure you tell yourself that.  The vast majority of people do not suddenly save money spent on a discretionary item should that item suddenly disappear.  The money is allocated to other discretionary pursuits.

New purchases replace old purchases.  New revenue replaces old revenue = no overall net gain in revenues.

Anecdotal evidence does not mean much.

brianjoxx

Brian, are you suggesting that the league is not allowing ownership groups from other Canadian cities to bid on CFL expansion franchises?
Actually not at all. IMOP through my contacts its the opposite. Most ownership groups would like the next franchise to be strong and vibrant with great resources that would add value to existing teams.
Any where any city. This is a business, which can be strong and always improving. Just some bad big mistakes that are coming home to roost today. We can't afford another one.

I've been involved with a group wanting to build a new stadium in Kelowna over the past 10 years.
Almost got their. Biggest obstacle when making pitches over the last 10 years is" Oh thought they gave that to Halifax" We need a outdoor venue for concerts, trade shows, soccer and football. This would be used big time. Now CFL has to be careful of there comments to stay positive to all. Of coarse there going to say many location are wonderful with CFL fans and supporters.
However WHY NOT COME OUT AND SAY there are many very good franchise locations, all with a chance SO bring all your proposals forward. Give every city a chance. Good cities.
BUT they don't and keep waving at Halifax area. Is their good value to CFL there!!
Probably not.
Everything happens for a reason.

The Last Word

We may be surprised. I don't believe there is anything on record of any city anywhere that chose to NOT allow a pro sports franchise to set up shop in town. They allow it, grant licenses and permits etc - because the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
If the benefits were as obvious as you state, all cities of any significant size in Canada and the US would be building stadiums for professional sports teams given your dubious claims of the (economic) benefits outweighing the negatives.  In Canada alone, we would be seeing significant contributions to CFL-sized stadiums in places like Victoria, Okanagan Valley, Saskatoon, Windsor, London and/or Kitchener, Quebec City, Moncton.  It's sure to provide a net positive contribution to the local economy right? 

I would love to see a legitimate study that actually proves a new sports franchise actually provides an actual increase in revenues for a city.  Of course such a study would have to take into account numerous variables such as population growth, new industry, businesses closing/relocating and other factors.

As for claiming those who actually studied the impact (or lack thereof) that a new pro sports team and new stadium/arena would provide to the local economy are eggheads who don't like sports is the sign of someone who doesn't have a substantive counter-argument.  I eagerly await a study the proves otherwise...and not one paid for by vested interests (owners or upper management of a pro sports team) which will arrive at a pre-determined conclusion ie. the $1 million publicly funded feasibility study which of course recommended a domed stadium as a preferred option for Regina with some questionable claims as to the utilization in winter months. 

PTBO Dave

Brian, are you suggesting that the league is not allowing ownership groups from other Canadian cities to bid on CFL expansion franchises?
Actually not at all. IMOP through my contacts its the opposite. Most ownership groups would like the next franchise to be strong and vibrant with great resources that would add value to existing teams.
Any where any city. This is a business, which can be strong and always improving. Just some bad big mistakes that are coming home to roost today. We can't afford another one.

I've been involved with a group wanting to build a new stadium in Kelowna over the past 10 years.
Almost got their. Biggest obstacle when making pitches over the last 10 years is" Oh thought they gave that to Halifax" We need a outdoor venue for concerts, trade shows, soccer and football. This would be used big time. Now CFL has to be careful of there comments to stay positive to all. Of coarse there going to say many location are wonderful with CFL fans and supporters.
However WHY NOT COME OUT AND SAY there are many very good franchise locations, all with a chance SO bring all your proposals forward. Give every city a chance. Good cities.
BUT they don't and keep waving at Halifax area. Is their good value to CFL there!!
Probably not.
So you think the CFL IS taking bids from groups representing other Canadian cities? But they should publicize that fact more? I don't disagree that they should promote the fact they're accepting proposals from all over, though I can also understand the appeal of going out East.

And Kelowna hasn't been able to build a stadium over the past 10 years because Halifax keeps being given something? What things, and how are those things interfering with the Kelowna stadium?

Grover

Langford, which is a Suburb of Victoria, has a forward thinking Mayor who is expanding their existing Stadium from 1700 to 8000.
They have no professional tenant.

http://www.timescolonist.com/sports/for-langford-it-s-game-on-for-stadium-with-8-000-seats-1.23188068

Langford plans to expand Westhills Stadium to 8,000 seats, from 1,718, in what could be a game-changer for outdoor sports in Greater Victoria.
It would put the region in the capacity range of what would be required for the upcoming professional soccer Canadian Premier League, B.C. Lions exhibition CFL games, and for certain international games featuring the Canadian men’s and women’s soccer and rugby teams.

Thanks to @Doc_Dave for sig

The Last Word

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
This is not an additional $50 million in benefits though.  The majority of the attendees at a Grey Cup are locals.  They are the individuals spending the majority of the money that constitutes this $50 million in economic benefits, not outsiders from other provinces.  If the Grey Cup is not held in their city, there would not suddenly be a shortfall of $50 million to the local economy.  Those individuals who would have attended the Grey Cup, its many festivals and purchased associated merchandise would have spent their discretionary income on other forms of entertainment and consumable goods throughout the year.  The $300, $500, $1000 or whatever it is these individuals would have spent during Grey Cup week does not simply stay in their pocket.  It finds its way into the local economy through other means.  I would also note that $50 million figure is based on the multiplier effect.

As for the 5 - 10,000 individuals who do attend from out-of-province...considering the Grey Cup will only be held in halifax once every 10-12 years, it hardly justifies the extravagant public expenditure for a twice a generation event.

The Last Word

Exactly. Those in the Maritimes, particularly the Halifax region should be hollering for this to happen ASAP and for all levels of government to help cost share to some degree in the stadium development. Even a senior citizen who has no interest in attending events at the stadium will benefit - because their greatest need as they age (healthcare budgets) will increase from the new tax revenues that didn’t exist prior. Even their day to day hospital facilities and services will improve - as these facilities must be prepared for potential catastrophes occurring wherever 30,000 people regularly gather.

Once weighing the pros and cons - there isn’t a down side to a CFL team and new stadium in Halifax.
It's been proven time and time again that sports stadiums have no positive economic impact on cities.  I still think some government funding for the stadium is a good idea though.  Sports teams can be a point of civic pride, and can bring a community together.  But trying to frame a CFL franchise as some huge economic benefit that is going to improve healthcare for seniors is crazy.  Google any of the 100's of studies that show the impact of sports teams on local economies.  
Studies can be made to conclude whichever way the authors wish to take it. We hired 11 University grads last summer. We gave them $20.00 an hour to start and all the overtime they want to take on at $30.00 an hour, flexible schedules and a health plan. That may not sound like much but in Halifax, this is a good starting wage by Xmas we had 2 left. Of the 9 we lost, 8 left the province. When doing exit interviews, the same answers kept coming back.

Lack of Diversity (Food choice, social events...) This is where a stadium falls in.
Lack of upward mobility (Kind of tough without growth)
Poor transit
High cost of living.

At some point a city has to do something to grow, to keep its talent it needs to be vibrant, creative and business friendly. None of these apply to Halifax.

I know exactly how this ends. These progressives that run this city and by default the province (over 60 percent of the population lives around Halifax) are going to show up hat in hand in Ottawa within the next ten years and ask to be bailed out. Population is aging at a rapid, rapid rate and all the young talent is leaving. This is a disaster in the making. The politicians here are beholden to a small bunch of rich parasites that can't see pass their nose.
If things are as bleak as you paint them in Halifax, then spending $100 million or more in public funds on a pro sports stadium which will host a whopping ten football games is pretty much the last way to resolve those issues.  There are considerably better ways for government to allocate its resources to entice business and the younger demographic to the city and province.

And since the demographics are less then ideal (older then average population) perhaps a CFL expansion team is not ideal for the region anyways. 

depopulationINC

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
This is not an additional $50 million in benefits though.  The majority of the attendees at a Grey Cup are locals.  They are the individuals spending the majority of the money that constitutes this $50 million in economic benefits, not outsiders from other provinces.  If the Grey Cup is not held in their city, there would not suddenly be a shortfall of $50 million to the local economy.  Those individuals who would have attended the Grey Cup, its many festivals and purchased associated merchandise would have spent their discretionary income on other forms of entertainment and consumable goods throughout the year.  The $300, $500, $1000 or whatever it is these individuals would have spent during Grey Cup week does not simply stay in their pocket.  It finds its way into the local economy through other means.  I would also note that $50 million figure is based on the multiplier effect.

As for the 5 - 10,000 individuals who do attend from out-of-province...considering the Grey Cup will only be held in halifax once every 10-12 years, it hardly justifies the extravagant public expenditure for a twice a generation event.
I disagree.  not with the premise as a whole, but in part.

attendance from out of town (I will say town, not province, because it is a local influx) is above 10000.  I would say it is 15-20 000 by the time it is all said and done.  Remember, there are probably 1000+ there not actually physically attending the game.

that is 15 000 people getting rooms, eating and drinking for 4-5 days.  if you modestly say that is 150/person, that is 10mil+ being spent...modestly.  There is then a boost to people setting things up and rentals and bars...they would get a very small piece of that remaining cash flow if not for the event....even from locals.  Most of that cash would likely have gone to other entertainment or savings.

The Last Word

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
This is not an additional $50 million in benefits though.  The majority of the attendees at a Grey Cup are locals.  They are the individuals spending the majority of the money that constitutes this $50 million in economic benefits, not outsiders from other provinces.  If the Grey Cup is not held in their city, there would not suddenly be a shortfall of $50 million to the local economy.  Those individuals who would have attended the Grey Cup, its many festivals and purchased associated merchandise would have spent their discretionary income on other forms of entertainment and consumable goods throughout the year.  The $300, $500, $1000 or whatever it is these individuals would have spent during Grey Cup week does not simply stay in their pocket.  It finds its way into the local economy through other means.  I would also note that $50 million figure is based on the multiplier effect.

As for the 5 - 10,000 individuals who do attend from out-of-province...considering the Grey Cup will only be held in halifax once every 10-12 years, it hardly justifies the extravagant public expenditure for a twice a generation event.
I disagree.  not with the premise as a whole, but in part.

attendance from out of town (I will say town, not province, because it is a local influx) is above 10000.  I would say it is 15-20 000 by the time it is all said and done.  Remember, there are probably 1000+ there not actually physically attending the game.

that is 15 000 people getting rooms, eating and drinking for 4-5 days.  if you modestly say that is 150/person, that is 10mil+ being spent...modestly.  There is then a boost to people setting things up and rentals and bars...they would get a very small piece of that remaining cash flow if not for the event....even from locals.  Most of that cash would likely have gone to other entertainment or savings.
Do you have proof of that?  Outside of the biggest cities - Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, maybe Calgary and Ottawa - the other cities do not have the hotel capacity to accommodate the numbers you suggest.  Regina has 3,000 hotel rooms and a portion (or majority) of those would have been reserved for guests who are in the city for unrelated activities ie. business tourism.

Hamilton has even fewer rooms - 2000-2500
Winnipeg - approx. 8 - 9000
Edmonton a little over 10,000
Halifax - probably slightly less then Winnipeg

Again, these cities have a significant amount of their inventory reserved for other clientele not related to the Grey Cup festivities so only a percentage of those rooms are available for the Grey Cup guests.  Good luck getting 15 - 20,000 people staying in the city with so few accommodations available.  Perhaps 8 people to a room might do it?

There will be additional visitors to the city of course.  But these tend to people that live just outside the city...probably within a hour or so drive, no overnighters.  These are people who tend to visit the city on a regular basis for shopping and entertainment needs that cannot be met by their immediate surroundings.  Since this is likely the case, there is little to no added benefit from these in-province visitors  during Grey Cup hosting years.  These people will be spending money in the city throughout the year regardless of the Grey Cup.

depopulationINC

The financial benefits of 1 Grey Cup in Halifax will generate well over $50M in economic benefits to the City of Halifax and the province of Nova Scotia.
This economic benefit will also happen in the month of November when tourism would need a much needed boost
This is not an additional $50 million in benefits though.  The majority of the attendees at a Grey Cup are locals.  They are the individuals spending the majority of the money that constitutes this $50 million in economic benefits, not outsiders from other provinces.  If the Grey Cup is not held in their city, there would not suddenly be a shortfall of $50 million to the local economy.  Those individuals who would have attended the Grey Cup, its many festivals and purchased associated merchandise would have spent their discretionary income on other forms of entertainment and consumable goods throughout the year.  The $300, $500, $1000 or whatever it is these individuals would have spent during Grey Cup week does not simply stay in their pocket.  It finds its way into the local economy through other means.  I would also note that $50 million figure is based on the multiplier effect.

As for the 5 - 10,000 individuals who do attend from out-of-province...considering the Grey Cup will only be held in halifax once every 10-12 years, it hardly justifies the extravagant public expenditure for a twice a generation event.
I disagree.  not with the premise as a whole, but in part.

attendance from out of town (I will say town, not province, because it is a local influx) is above 10000.  I would say it is 15-20 000 by the time it is all said and done.  Remember, there are probably 1000+ there not actually physically attending the game.

that is 15 000 people getting rooms, eating and drinking for 4-5 days.  if you modestly say that is 150/person, that is 10mil+ being spent...modestly.  There is then a boost to people setting things up and rentals and bars...they would get a very small piece of that remaining cash flow if not for the event....even from locals.  Most of that cash would likely have gone to other entertainment or savings.
Do you have proof of that?  Outside of the biggest cities - Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, maybe Calgary and Ottawa - the other cities do not have the hotel capacity to accommodate the numbers you suggest.  Regina has 3,000 hotel rooms and a portion (or majority) of those would have been reserved for guests who are in the city for unrelated activities ie. business tourism.

Hamilton has even fewer rooms - 2000-2500
Winnipeg - approx. 8 - 9000
Edmonton a little over 10,000
Halifax - probably slightly less then Winnipeg

Again, these cities have a significant amount of their inventory reserved for other clientele not related to the Grey Cup festivities so only a percentage of those rooms are available for the Grey Cup guests.  Good luck getting 15 - 20,000 people staying in the city with so few accommodations available.  Perhaps 8 people to a room might do it?

There will be additional visitors to the city of course.  But these tend to people that live just outside the city...probably within a hour or so drive, no overnighters.  These are people who tend to visit the city on a regular basis for shopping and entertainment needs that cannot be met by their immediate surroundings.  Since this is likely the case, there is little to no added benefit from these in-province visitors  during Grey Cup hosting years.  These people will be spending money in the city throughout the year regardless of the Grey Cup.
Yes...like I said, I am being modest:

http://edmontonjournal.com/news/local-news/edmonton-grey-cup-festival-almost-double-the-size-of-2010-celebrations

Quote
Vienneau expected 30,000 to 40,000 out-of-town visitors, with around 500,000 on-site spectators in total.
https://www.cfl.ca/2012/03/06/grey-cup-economic-impact-exceeds-118-million/

Quote
A celebration of Canadian sport, arts and culture that unites the nation each year, the 2011 Grey Cup Festival ran from November 24th through the 27th and played host to 130,000 fans of which 33% came from outside the province, making more than 290,000 visits to official and associated events including the Grey Cup Parade, Vanier Cup, and Grey Cup game.
Quote
These record-setting economic Grey Cup numbers also resulted in the creation of more than 800 jobs and almost $18 million in taxes collected at various levels of government. Total direct spending by visitors was just under $43 million and the total number of overnight visitors hit 59,005.
Just a couple quick examples.  Edmonton, and BC



As far as rooms being used for things other than the GC...not really true in the smaller venues.  How many people are booking rooms for weddings or business a year in advance?  Pretty much every single room is booked a year plus in advance and for the cup in smaller markets and the other "things" are simply deferred to a different week. 

Mightygoose

Brian, are you suggesting that the league is not allowing ownership groups from other Canadian cities to bid on CFL expansion franchises?
Actually not at all. IMOP through my contacts its the opposite. Most ownership groups would like the next franchise to be strong and vibrant with great resources that would add value to existing teams.
Any where any city. This is a business, which can be strong and always improving. Just some bad big mistakes that are coming home to roost today. We can't afford another one.

I've been involved with a group wanting to build a new stadium in Kelowna over the past 10 years.
Almost got their. Biggest obstacle when making pitches over the last 10 years is" Oh thought they gave that to Halifax" We need a outdoor venue for concerts, trade shows, soccer and football. This would be used big time. Now CFL has to be careful of there comments to stay positive to all. Of coarse there going to say many location are wonderful with CFL fans and supporters.
However WHY NOT COME OUT AND SAY there are many very good franchise locations, all with a chance SO bring all your proposals forward. Give every city a chance. Good cities.
BUT they don't and keep waving at Halifax area. Is their good value to CFL there!!
Probably not.
Is there a potential ownership group interested in putting a team in Kelowna (or any other location) with the planned stadium? If there was with a solid business plan, I'm certain the league would be all ears.

To have a successful franchise, 3 pillars need to be in place 1) the market itself, 2) the venue and 3) the ownership.

Halifax is the only place where the prospects of pillar 3 exist which is why it's the only place in the expansion discussion.
 


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